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A Position on Time

IJesusChrist

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
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22 Juil 2008
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First, yes; whatever you just said I basically agree with.

Here is where I am coming from:

When a tree falls in the forest... does it make a sound? No. It makes some vibration, but it does not make a sound.

When the universe existed before humans [assuming we are the only conscious beings which I don't] did it make an image, a sound, a taste, a smell, a feeling? No. But it did exist, but really change is only perceived by consciousness, so without consciousness time (and therefore space) are eternally consecutive.

Which is to say, without perception of the universe, like ourselves, the universe is seen as a singularity. It all happened at once, in one place - we are just lucky observers to be able to see sectional change...
 

peach

Glandeuse pinéale
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5 Nov 2008
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244
I don't have time (muw ha ha ha ha) to engage in this discussion at the moment as I'm really busy. But search on youtube for 10th dimension explained. This is from the idea that physics uses multiple additional dimensions in the maths needed to explain superstring theory.
 

IJesusChrist

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22 Juil 2008
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I posted that video a few times on here peach, it's pretty interesting but I don't believe it to be true (that goes along with string theory as well)
 

morethanasphere

Neurotransmetteur
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13 Avr 2010
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Okay, so I watched the video peach suggested, then watched another one by the same guy in which he says time is thought of as a sort of not-really-fully-a-dimension kind of dimension. He then illustrates it as a "building," all the 11 dimensions squares stacked one on the other, with the 4th dimension, time, shown sort of wavery and not always really there. He goes on to explain this is why it's so important to prove time does actually exist, because the dependent math won't stand up otherwise, but that the jury is essentially still out on that point.

So we're still back the big question, does time actually exist or not? Sounds like a lot of really super-smart people are smart enough not to venture an opinion on that. :)

Interesting vid, peach. Thanks for the journey.
 

peach

Glandeuse pinéale
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5 Nov 2008
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Once you get to that level of science, you can't expect the things they're talking about to physically exist or be actual descriptions of something. They're just models of how something is behaving.

I tried explaining this to someone using the atom as an example. It's too small to actually see what it looks like beyond a blob. The initial model was that it looked like a cake, with the particles all lumped together. Then we switched to the one that'll be in your minds, of a sphere with electrons flying around it in a single orbit. In reality, a more accurate description is of a sphere surrounded by various stacked shells of energy, as the electrons are moving so quickly they behave more like a layer, where charge couples into paired regions.

Then you have light, that can either act like a wave of energy or a solid particle (photons). Just models to describe the activity.

Superstring theory came about because, unlike the two models on their own (which work perfectly when separate from each other), trying to marry quantum physics with things like gravity doesn't work. Primarily because our way of understanding space time and thinking it can be chopped up into infinitely tiny pieces; e.g. a meter will go to centimeters, then millimeters, then microns, then nano, then picos... etc. That meant that the equations trying to join the two kept having infinity in them (because it could go on forever), and wouldn't work. So superstrings have been mathematically proposed to set a finite limit on the chopping down of space time. The multitude of dimensions they need to model mathematically may not actually exist as places, it's just how the math needs adapting to describe the behaviors at those sizes, energies, velocities, densities etc.

I also described to this someone how the theory is being proven correct. For example, the man who designed the periodic table not only managed to predict properties from the order of the table, he managed to predict elements that hadn't been isolated and left spaces for them. We've since found those elements.

In the same story, the physicists who have devised superstring theory have not only found certain particles, they've managed to extrapolate from the math which others should exist, which ones can't and what groups they should appear in. Then found them. Demonstrating their predictions are not based on wild guesses but predictable math. The problem is, the math involved in that work is waaaaaaaay above most standards (some of it doesn't even work using normal math) and there's no hope of most people understanding it. Most people can't remember Pythagoras' rules, let alone start talking about three dimensional vector based differential algebra, which is still miles from the level they're working at. But those seemingly wacky ideas they come up, like the numbers of dimensions, are based on predictable, demonstrable logic. They can predict the existence of something and then see it's effects manifest up to higher levels in particle accelerator experiments.

The scientist even know themselves how much these models are based on abstract math. For instance, when it got to quarks, they started giving them arbitrary names like up, down, strange, charm, top and bottom. Because they don't resemble anything humans are used to contacting with their tactile senses.

It may not be perfect or composed of actual strings but the nay sayers no not of what they discuss and just how much it is starting to permeate science they are coming to rely on. E.g. the memory in your phone uses quantum tunneling. Effectively the teleportation of solid particles through solid barriers. Something most people would still laugh at the idea of.
 

IJesusChrist

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22 Juil 2008
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String theory is AWFUL in my opinion.

We came up with an equation, and I'm going to go into some math terms here, M(x,y,z).

(Just an easy example)

Now, we can't join relativity to Quantum mechanics with M(x,y,z). BUT! If we take M and add 23 more variables (really 23? yes 23.) It works perfectly! SO M(x,y,z....23) now joins them both.

"Question! How do we account for the other variables, we really only live in 3, or 4, dimensional space?"

"Well, right now it doesn't work, but imagine just for example, we have these other dimensions." "K!"

Now we have 23 variables in which we can optimize to fit our universe, but the problem is, we have 23 variables! We have an infinite amount of different parameters that can accomodate our universe, i.e. variable 23 can be changed, and subsequently we can change 12 to accomodate the change in 23 and still end up with the same 'universe'.

Ok so thats a problem.

So new guys came out that limited it to 15... then 14... then 13... then 11 dimensions (a consensus was agreed upon here). "OK WELL STILL DID YOU GUYS FIGURE OUT HOW TO EXPLAIN 7 EXTRA DIMENSIONS?" "Yes we just rolled them up into a Calubi-Yau space (sp?) so that they work. K?"
"no I don't get it, why can't I go into them"
"Oh they are just so small that not even a wavelength of visible light can go in them!"
"Oh OK!"

Well, shit we still have 7 extra parameters and no desirable one, which set of parameters is our universe?

(super smart guy): What if... these parameters... are explaining every possible universe?
Consensus: WHOA DUDE.
SSG: Yeah, Im going to call it M-Theory.

M theory turns out to be the study that ALL string theories aren't actual theories, they are part of a grand equation, almost as if our universe is a derivative of this grand equation, this grand M-Theory. String theory easily explains our universe (Well... kind of) but it fails to explain it in uniqueness. We can add dimensions indefinitely, and we end up with the same answer, the same reality. There are an infinite way of explaining our universe!

But none of it is experimental. None of it predicts anything. None of it is science. Its a bunch of math nerds that have too much time. They just sit around and add dimensions, take away dimensions and get no where. There is fundamental flaws all about string theory and imo it should be abondened. Quantum gravity cannot be solved in parallel ith reality via string theory, so fuck it! Fuck it all! :finga:
 

BrainEater

Banni
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21 Juil 2007
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it's not easy being a god, just like it's not easy being a human... :p
 

IJesusChrist

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
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22 Juil 2008
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I think string theory is far from god's thinking.
 

BrainEater

Banni
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21 Juil 2007
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5 922
obviously not, but i recognize the certain roundabout way involved in "string-theoretical-thinking", that you seem to be alluding to.
 
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