A little mindwork based on Paulo Coelho

[HeartCore]

Well it's kind of impossible to have a discussion about the things we individual see in our trips and although I understand the need for someone to rationalize it, there is no need for that. You can be scientist for the hell of it, your rationalization can't touch stuff that is not in this world. Like consciousness, spirit, whatever name you want to give it.

Although it may not seem so, I am a very rational and skeptical person and it took therefor a long time before I could accept the things presented in the mushroom trips. Contact with 'another' for instance. Surely I've analysed that, looked at it from all sides and came to the conclusion that I simply don't know what that other is. It could be a higher dimension of myself, planetary consciousness, communication with the mushroom species or maybe even the mushroom is a messenger from out of space. Since there really is no way for me to know, my personal preference is to look at it as an alien entity. I'm not placing any value in that assumption, it's just a matter of personal taste, interest etc..

So far I've not seen a good explanation about where the visions come from just as I've not seen a good explanation that tells us what dreaming and lucid dreaming is. Sure there are scientific explanations but the majoriry are hindered by the lack of experience on the part of the observer.

Untill we have a commonly accepted model that scientifically explained what the visions are and where they come from, we are all on our own and your explanation is as good as mine.

 

[Forkbender]

Well it's kind of impossible to have a discussion about the things we individual see in our trips and although I understand the need for someone to rationalize it, there is no need for that. You can be scientist for the hell of it, your rationalization can't touch stuff that is not in this world. Like consciousness, spirit, whatever name you want to give it.
...
Untill we have a commonly accepted model that scientifically explained what the visions are and where they come from, we are all on our own and your explanation is as good as mine.

True, rationality is a product of this world and is therefore only applicable to matters in this world. But I do not see the necessity for there to be an accepted model to explain the visions. I think there are many different explanations that can be valid all at once, because we do not have only one type of rationality but several. For example, there can be a biological or physical explanation. Or a psychological one. Or a spiritual/metaphysical one. Or an alien one. :wink: These can coexist without interference, because truth has many aspects. Our rationality cannot fathom all these different aspects and as soon as we start to communicate our rational findings, even more is lost, because not everyone is on the same frequency.

 

[HeartCore]

But I do not see the necessity for there to be an accepted model to explain the visions.

Yes exactly!

I say: Who the fuck cares?

Take this example from the Holotropic mind (S. Grof):

Some guy lost his wife at some point in his life, she died. He suffered from depression for 10+ years. Therapy here, hospital there, no cure, this guy was just done with life.

So at some point, coincidentally he meets Grof (don't remember the details) and he agree's to participate in an LSD therapeutic session. This guy takes acid, walks to the beach, meets his dead wife, speaks with her for an hour and is REBORN, his depression is gone, he came to terms with the dead of his wife.

Now anyone, being scientist or whoever, trying to rationalize this experience, deserves a swift shot in the back of the head in my opinion. This guys is very sick, he takes a drug, meets his dead wife and is cured. There is NO FUCKING NEED TO RATIONALIZE HIS EXPERIENCE BECAUSE IT WORKED FOR HIM!

That's the essence of this stuff. Science can't tough it with their stubby fingers, it's in the realm of the imagination, magic, alchemy, anecdotal, science should not touch this stuff. What we need science for, is to come up with safeguides on how to use this stuff but please, handsoff from the experience because the only thing science can do, it to make it smaller.

Shaman's from the amazon are well aware of this fact. We western psychonauts often think that these shaman's have complex models about what dmt is, how it works and where it comes from. Truth is that once you get into the inside circle and become seriously loaded with these guys, they admit that they have no clue why or how it works. They just know it does.

You know, science is in an extremely arrogant position. Not many people know how the calculus came into existance (René Decartes came up with that). This is generally seen as the birth of modern science. Now here it comes:

In some small village, coincidentally years later the birthtown of Albert Einstein, René Descartes was visisted in his sleep by an angel who gave him the quest of founding modern science. You don't learn this in school but it's a fact that can easily be looked up and confirmed.

So what does that say about science, the great thing that seeks to de-spiritualize our reality was founded by the command of an angel?

 

[Guest]

I totally agree with you there.
Keep ya damn paws of the experience!

I love the magic around it and although I study the chemical aspects of it, it doesn't change my perception of it, 'cause everytime a trip is a wonderfull thing to experience and everytime I feel enriched and a little more enlightened.

And (for me) it's just a really colorfull way to return to my core and win back terrain that once belonged to me and not to the systems imprinted by this society

 

[Siq]

Damn .. I wish I could think that thought, believe that truth. The conviction, no the knowledge, that thát what matters is only that what you experience personally. Wether you can explain it or not, it .. just .. is.

I allways find difficulty in placing these alien concept I experience on psychoactives somewhere in a neat (and logical) spot in my brains. I try to create links to it, try to say "Well, if this .. than that? Right?" and keep doubting and getting into strange or even nasty mindtricks.

I really want to be able to experience everything .. or anything without having to .. understand it. I've allways been into logic explanations and stuff .. I mean, for-fuck-sake, I'm a programmer: IF () THEN {} ELSE {} It has just been part of me to create such explanations for the things I experience, but I wish to be freeed from that.



.. I could create or believe in a world in which all is logic .. but I just feel that I would mis a lot of truth. Any suggestions?

 

[Cyproxicus]

Now anyone, being scientist or whoever, trying to rationalize this experience, deserves a swift shot in the back of the head in my opinion. This guys is very sick, he takes a drug, meets his dead wife and is cured. There is NO FUCKING NEED TO RATIONALIZE HIS EXPERIENCE BECAUSE IT WORKED FOR HIM!

imo there is a need..
What if the LSD therapy won't work for the next person? Wouldn't we like to know what it was that DID make it work for this guy. Wich means, understanding what happened during the trip?
Ofcourse Shamanists dont need the scientific explanation for it. But I see no reason in why we (as western civilisation) should not try to explain it. IMO we could only learn from it.

I'd compare it to having a great trip on shrooms.. and then NOT evaluate, think things over, try to figure out the meaning of what u've just experienced. On a bigger scale (and with more precision) that is what science is doing, or should be doing.

I think the problem with science is not it's logical thinking.. but it's lack of unlogical thinking. I think more scientific studies should look at whats going on at art-schools .. and vice versa, wich DOES happen. (Im a design student btw)
This kinda refers to Siq's frustation.
Wich suprised me. 'Cuz I experienced that programming and designing is in fact much alike. Like making art and doing science is in it's essence the same thing. We (as society) never seem to notice this fact.

In a nut-shell: Science is not bad. The modern view on science is. It's time for a new interpretation of science. Much like art and design got new meanings.

[off-topic]
So what does that say about science, the great thing that seeks to de-spiritualize our reality was founded by the command of an angel?

And what does that say about spirituality? An angels that gave us the ability to rationalize (and in a way understand) sprituality...
Imo, both ways: it says a lot but yet nothing at all.[/off-topic]

 

[Forkbender]

@Siq: Truth is felt, never reasoned. Reason is like a bucket of shit. You cannot really do anything with it except nourish a field on which something grows. The seeds to be planted in this field are seeds of feeling. Whatever feels the most true, your reason will work in such a way as to defend this truth (however wrong it may be). Truth is believed before it is argued.

@Cyproxicus: I think you are right in saying that science in itself is not bad, but a reductionist image of science, which doesn't take into account feeling, personal experience, spirituality etc. I do not think, however, that it is the task of science to interpret shit for us. That would take so much away from us human beings, since basically every perception is already an interpretation of the world. (It could be argued for example that on a higher level everything is one being, that separate beings only exist in our perception, which is basically the analytical mode of science) It does not make one way of looking at things more true than another. Both ways are valuable (science invented a lot of things that were very helpful to human freedom, for example).

 

[Siq]

Saying science is shit is a way to big word. Science and it's logic make words apear on your screen. I can tell you why and how this works .. or you can stay in the miracules amazement of having some 'thing' can make you communicated with many, many people, some weird medium.

This is no offence, but I bet you understand how this PC-thingy works and you must have found out, one way or another, how to interact with it and it's logic of it. Offcourse, the PC is (except for the bugs in software) THE most on-logic-based machine we've .. erm .. build, so perhaps not the best example.

But in everything we do and experience, our mind just tries to figure out what happened. This urge to find out, this interest is natural for us humans, imo.

Science, well .. maybe crossed the line and works against itself as it's contents prohibits it's laws to expand, in other words .. it's so bound to it's framework that some things don't fit in there, but may aswell be explained from another point of view.

 

[Cyproxicus]

First of all, i'd like to say I'm in dual (?! ..tweestrijd) on this...

Hmm.. but to come back to the post that started it all:

It is not all-right for 'science' to say the number of birds is just coincidence based on an image that happens to be there at the time. (Or some other theory.)
But it IS ok for psychonauts to say it is an inner-eye or the sub-consiounce.

I think we need to allow both or neither. Where 'neither' would mean we accept/believe the fact that every experience is soo unique that there is no point in trying to find out a meaning as a collective/community/goup. Which would bring us back to merely sharing expiriences/stories and 'ooh' and 'ahh' on them. (fine with me :D)

Still don't know what to believe :D
Got thoughts, anyone?!

 

[Forkbender]

Saying science is shit is a way to big word.

I did not say science is shit. I was saying that reason is shit. And I was talking metaphorically: a plant needs shit to grow, but shit cannot do anything by itself. Same thing with reason...

 

[Cyproxicus]

Ur funny fork :D U got me ROFL'ing so fkn' hard, I almost reason my pants.

 

[HeartCore]

Ok I didnt make myself clear.

I don't think science is shit, I only think it should stay with the field it is equipped for and stay away from personal experience. Not in the sense that science shouldnt try to find out where the visions come from and how it works, that is legitimate science. However, rationalizing someone elses profound experience is stupid and not scientific. Furthermore, it doesnt add anything to the experience.

We all know that science primary interest is de-spiritualizing nature, or at least, that is the outcome of about 500 years of this. Nothing can kill your magnificient meeting with the gods more than some limited guy in a white dress who's greatest intoxication in all his life has been Heinieken, is trying to explain to you that what just happened with you was the processing of some fungi neutrotransmitters in your brain.

I'm very happy with science letting my car drive, my pc work, cure my cat, kill my bugs etc... What I definitaly don't need science for, is to tell me what my visions are and where they come from because in this case, your answer is always better than theirs since it are your visions that have been tailored to fit your needs.

Now on the subject of coincidence. All religions tell us coincidence does not exist. All religions tell us some power has been guillty of kicking all of us into existence. If you look at most people's life's, most people have anecdotes about peculiar things happen to them, those weird coincidences that seem to happen and are inexplicable. If' you've been totally in love sometimes, you'll know what I mean, deja vu can be so comming among lovers that you won't even notice it.

No one believe's that when you look out of the window, some bird or tree will manifest itself coincidentally.

Still, science tell us that is exactly what happened, it all happened out of coincidence without reason. What science doesnt tell you is that they need a small miracle to 'proof' what they are saying (I'm talking about the instance of a second just before the big bang). Well if I am allowewed one small miracle in my thesis, I can proof to all of you, that your real father is Santa Claus.

See what I mean?

I don't hate science, I hate the arrogance of science, the misconception that we human being will ever be able to map the universe and say 'aaaah, this is how it's happened'. Really, in the field of the psychedelic experience, you are the specialist, science is only there to feel your pulse, bloodpressure etc..

A beautiful poem was posted here. It took a couple of posts to fuck it up with scientific rationalization (no offense intended ;) ). That's a shame in my opinion because instead of making the poem clear, it takes a away most of its beauty.

Poetry is the perfect example of an object not to be touched by science.

Thats what I wanted to say actually, could have saved me all the other bullshit lol.

In a nut-shell: Science is not bad. The modern view on science is. It's time for a new interpretation of science. Much like art and design got new meanings.

Yes I agree completely.

 

[Forkbender]

I agree, HC, but there are a lot of voices beneath the surface that say that science should be more artful, more moral, etc. They want to incorporate or reincorporate beauty and spirit within science. Most of the mainstream science resists this movement, but if you look to holistic science for example they try really hard to bring it all back together. However, this is not taken seriously by most scientists and most other people (I do not even know if I take it seriously), because holistic science is nice and all, but pretty useless when it comes to clarifying things. They basically state that the nature of reality is this or that, but cannot predict anything. For that one needs a scientific attitude, which is very helpful to all of us sometime. From a holistic point of view, it doesn't matter what happens, because the system as a whole will keep functioning. From a scientific point of view, that incorporates many distinctions, it does matter, although they do not ascribe an ethical stance to this. So what happens, say a person jumping of a bridge, would not matter holistically, but does scientifically. Science is just another way to create oppositions and attachment. It is not worse than for example love, which tends to be very much pointed to maintaining the status quo without wanting change. Nietzsche said that to want change is the only way to not feel bad at some point (not in these words, but something like it). Holding onto tradition, distinctions, variations, it is all arbitrary, but we need it, because it ties us to our lives and to our environment.

 

[HeartCore]

Well ok take the example of a lightyear. We are not capable to even conceive of what a lightyear is. Still, we believe we know exactly how many lightyears some stars are away. I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm just saying, you can't proof that it is so. How can anyone say for sure that a star is exactly so many lightyears away if we cannot even accurately measure a lightsecond (which would involve putting some measuring equipment one light second away from a lightsource.

Do you see what I mean? Science says:'THIS is how it is', and when you respond with 'But 20 years back you said the opposite', science just says 'yes, but now we have disovered new facts.'. New facts will submerge always so science can never be accurate. Take into consideration the fact that at some point the notion that the world was flat, was an intellectual, scientific thing to believe. This was in the time that telescopes where invented and it was actually illegal to use them. Note the similarities with psychedelics, a tool to gaze into the innerspace of human's has been made illegal.

I'm just saying that I trust science to move my car, heat my house, empower my pc but it should be very careful when applied to vision or psychedelics. Imagine you having this profound realization that life does not end after dead and some dork with a white jacket is informing you that 'nono, thats not it, it's a chemical reaction in the brain that causes you to think life does not end after dead. This is ridiculous, how can anyone even think they know how it works? This is so unbelievable arrogant. This world is an illusion, I think we can safely agree on that considering findings in quantum physics for example. My take on it is that we are all happily living and learning in some virtual world, an AI universe. Or this is the closest I can come to understand what life is with my limited understanding of the world. Science can perfectly describe how stuff works, how gravity works, fire burns, ice cools etc... It cannot however, touch the programmers, the developers that are outside of this system at a place unimaginable to us, living in this dream.

edit:

Holding onto tradition, distinctions, variations, it is all arbitrary, but we need it, because it ties us to our lives and to our environment.

Yes to the point! Now consider that all shamans that want to teach you something, will tell you that letting go of you traditions and values is necessary to be able to fully grasp what they teach. Being in a psychedelic state, takes you out of orginary reality. I mean, your body is still here but your mind is letting loose its boundaries. Next time you are high on mushrooms, try to scientifically rationalize what you go through, its impossible.

I would applaud the scientist that dedicates 5 minutes of his life to a DMT flash and then tries to de-spiritualize and rationalize it. Impossible I think but thats just an opinion :)

 

[Forkbender]

HC, I agree with most that you say, but the speed of light can be accurately measured. Just take two points in space, say ten kilometres apart. Send a flash to the other point and measure the time it takes for the flash to get there. (This can be done with computers, you don't need a stopwatch and human fallibility of course).

Furthermore, every human interpretation, scientific or not, is one way of interpretation and not THE way of interpretation. Most of science recognizes this about themselves nowadays, especially in the human sciences or in literary & cultural criticism. You can safely say that all science is wrong, that it interprets the facts in a way that is not true, but then you must also admit that your own interpretation is wrong, which is something that requires an unnatural amount of relativism.

 

[HeartCore]

HC, I agree with most that you say, but the speed of light can be accurately measured. Just take two points in space, say ten kilometres apart

Yes that seems to be ok but try to be creative and try to conceive how fast light actually travels and then try to comprehend how much 10km is relative to a light second. Its absolutely nothing. If you add to this the scientific findings of Gurdle who basically proved that 1+1=2 is a strong tendency but not an infallable law, you will see what I mean, we base very strong hypothesis to very small amounts of data. We simply don't know. We do suppose a lot, but we can't be sure.

Who would you rather talk to after a lifechanging psychedelic experience, a shaman who confirms what just happened to you and helps you integrate the experience? Or a scientist that hasnt got the slighest clue about the nature of the psychedelic experience, trying to convince you it's just brain chemistry that got the best of you. You can then safely shrug of the experience as some peculiar, pathological incident.

And if this world is indeed an illusion, both world religion as science seem to suggest this strongly, then where are our actual souls located? In the body? Well maybe yes, but what after the body dies? I don't know how many of you play online games but I like to use this metaphor, the guy that plays an online game, is not actually in the game. His mind/sould is interfacing with a device that enables him to enter a non-existing, metaphysical game world of virtually endless dimensions but the actual person, is in a place inconceivable to that game he is in. If you don't believe me, blame the mushroom cause that's what it told me ;)

 

[Guest]

Well, I have no problem in admitting that my interpetation might be wrong.
But there's also the belief that my interpetation is right.
But there's no way to prove that it is, so to me It doesn't matter.

Give me my experience and I'm happy, although I can't fully explain it, there's still that view that it gives you and the enriched feeling afterwords, the feeling you've been to the other side of space and back, no need to rationalise that

You don't see me rationalising sunset and that's also something I enjoy (very very much), so to me it doesn't matter what science tries to rationalise, this is my holism and science (or anybody else for that matter) can't touch it!

 

[Guest]

And if this world is indeed an illusion, both world religion as science seem to suggest this strongly, then where are our actual souls located? In the body? Well maybe yes, but what after the body dies? I don't know how many of you play online games but I like to use this metaphor, the guy that plays an online game, is not actually in the game. His mind/sould is interfacing with a device that enables him to enter a non-existing, metaphysical game world of virtually endless dimensions but the actual person, is in a place inconceivable to that game he is in. If you don't believe me, blame the mushroom cause that's what it told me ;)

I believe there's the physical body, in this dimension.
But you're spiritual body is somewhere else and I do believe you can experience that with DMT. To be shot into that other dimension, where you don't need your eyes to see, so you can see 360 degrees around and (what I believe to have experienced) the global unconsciousness of the world.
I like your example HC :mrgreen::thumbsup:

 

[HeartCore]

But there's no way to prove that it is, so to me It doesn't matter.

Thats exactly what I mean, why can't I summarize that so perfectly like you :)

Yes, there is no way to proof that so untill this changes, every theory is as good as the other so choose the one that suits you and be happy ;)

 

[Forkbender]

Well, I have no problem in admitting that my interpetation might be wrong.
But there's also the belief that my interpetation is right.
But there's no way to prove that it is, so to me It doesn't matter.

Yeah, I admit this is somewhat true. However, for most people, probably including you, there is a distinction between admitting you might be wrong on a mental level and actually knowing that you are wrong. We still believe in this world around us for our day to day life, although on a metaphysical level we might see it as an illusion. In that situation one would still believe it to be a true illusion. We simply cannot do without truth, because it would be impossible for us to live our lives.

@HC

Goedel (that's how you spell his name) did not say that 1+1=2 is only a strong tendency. He showed that within any mathematical system, there are sets of equasions that cannot be proven true or false. But: we cannot exactly know where the fault is. For example the fact that we cannot prove that God exists is not due to the fact that we cannot know him or that his actions are invisible to us, it is because the whole system isn't based on knowing him (or her, of course). Goedel thus basically showed that any mathematical system is incomplete and that therefore they are relative to each other.

I do agree with most of what you are saying, though, I personally think that science should not talk about personal experience in the way it is done most of the time. I do believe however that some sort of 'knowledge' is applied to it. Even when you talk to a shaman after a trip, he will fit it in his own conceptual system. He may not directly express this to you, and will respect your own experience of the matter, but he will for himself fit it into his world, just as you do, and just as science does. Science is just another way of dealing with truth. Truth, capital T, is never reached, maybe because it doesn't exist, maybe because we are finite beings. The only thing we can do, I think, is to constantly keep looking around, correcting yourself on the things that hinder your own relation to truth.