A little mindwork based on Paulo Coelho

[HeartCore]

Fork: Yes I think we agree mainly.

Thanks for clearing Goedel up ;)

 

[Siq]

Fork .. you've just hit the nail on it's head .. i.m.o.

Science has a framework (quite fixed it is) and within that .. it can be applied. We've all got our personal frameworks in which we can aply our personal concept and theories that can be aplied to what we percieve. My 'world' is different from anyone else's .. science's is totally very different from mine or anybodies.



Great discussion b.t.w, really great (:

 

[tryptonaut]

I would applaud the scientist that dedicates 5 minutes of his life to a DMT flash and then tries to de-spiritualize and rationalize it. Impossible I think but thats just an opinion

I'd like to add a quote here from Dr. Rick Strassmann, taken from DMT the spirit molecule

When reviewing my bedside notes, I continually feel surprise in seeing how many of our volunteers "made contact" with "them," or other beings. At least half did so in one form or another. Research subjects used expressions like "entities," "beings," "aliens," "guides," and "helpers" to describe them. The "life-forms" looked like clowns, reptiles, mantises, bees, spiders, cacti, and stick figures. It is still startling to see my written records of comments like "There were these beings," "I was being led," "They were on me fast." It's as if my mind refuses to accept what's there in black and white.
It may be that I have such a hard time with these stories because they challenge the prevailing world view, and my own. Our modern approach to reality relies upon waking consciousness, and its extensions of tools and instruments, as the only ways of knowing. If we can't see, hear, smell, taste, or touch things in our everyday state of mind, or using our technologyamplified senses, it's not real. Thus, these are "nonmaterial" beings.
In contrast, indigenous cultures are in regular contact with denizens of the invisible landscape and have no problems with straddling both worlds. Often they do this with the aid of psychedelic plants.
Many modern-day scientists possess an abiding faith in the spiritual. However, these same scientists are caught in a profound conflict between their personal and professional beliefs. What they say and what they feel may contradict each other profoundly. It is difficult to be "objective" about matters of the heart and spirit. Scientists may compartmentalize their faith and can't conceive of verifying or validating their spiritual intuition. In other cases they may water down the nature of those beliefs to maintain some consistency with their intellectual understanding. Perhaps they simply ignore the presence of angels and demons in essential scriptures, or regard them as symbolic or as hallucinatory manifestations of an overactive religious imagination.
Lack of open dialogue about these issues makes it much more difficult to even imagine enlarging our view of the reality of nonmaterial realms using scientific methods. What would happen to the study of spirit realms if we could access them reliably using molecules like DMT?

I'd also like to add that a lot of change in modern science has been achieved by people who have taken psychedelic substances. For example Dr. Kary Mullis, Nobel Price for chemistry in 1993, said in an interview for the documentary Horizon - Psychedelic Science, that he doubts he had been able to develop PCR without of the creative influence of LSD experiences.
In the same documentary Bob Wallis, co-founder of Microsoft states that he thinks a lot of early Silicon Valley success was based on people with psychedelic experiences and that he himself had invented the concept of shareware through the help of his psychedelic experiences. (the Horizon documentation was part of the big 8GB torrent posted here recently, so if anybody wants to see it, it might still be there)

So, I guess science can always use the creative input from psychedelics, from the ideas that seem "un-logic" at first glance. If you're a programmer and think you're done with IF, AND, OR logic, look into the field of machine translation and semantics. You'll see that after years and years of theory after theory no model has yet been found to represent the full spectrum of human speech logically. I'd say get into it and solve the problems with your psychedelics-enhanced mind! ;)

 

[Siq]

I'll have some acid and crack that baby, yeah (:

LOL .. but seriuosly .. LOL .. I'll do it .. .. LOL .. I just might (:

 

[Forkbender]

You'll see that after years and years of theory after theory no model has yet been found to represent the full spectrum of human speech logically. I'd say get into it and solve the problems with your psychedelics-enhanced mind! ;)

This is just a thought on this, but isn't language just another structure that isn't built on logic? Isn't logic itself a structure that isn't built logically? In posing this question, you assume that logic is transcendental to our plane of existence. I'd like to question that. It reminds me of the quote by the French metaphysician Henri Bergson that the laws are arbitrary, but the following of the laws isn't. In other words: we need laws to live by, though we choose them almost at random.

 

[Forkbender]

I just read a short story by Borges that proves that Coelho is a hack and stole his idea from Borges:

ARGUMENTUM ORNITHOLOGICUM

I close my eyes and see a swarm of birds. The vision lasts for a second or maybe shorter; I don't know how many birds I have seen. Was their number defined or undefined? This question implies that of the existence of God. If God exists, the number is defined, because God knows how many birds I have seen. If God doesn't exist, the number is undefined, because then no-one can count them. In that case I saw less than (say) ten birds and more than one, but I didn't see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, that was not nine, eight, seven, six, vijf, etc. A number like that is inconceivable; ergo, God exists.

 

[Guest]

Hahaha, this is a really creative thinker :mrgreen:

Yeah God counts all the birds I see in flocks inside my head :retard:

 

[forest]

it's a nice story

and nice that coelho made a poem about it.

 

[tryptonaut]

it's a nice story
and nice that coelho made a poem about it.

That essentially was the point, LOL ;)
I have some audio books by Coelho and they are really perfect when you smoked some weed, turn out the lights, lie in bed and just listen. I guess that's why this story made such an impression on me, it was the "hey dude this is totally weird"-effect ;)

 

[Guest]

I have some audio books by Coelho and they are really perfect when you smoked some weed, turn out the lights, lie in bed and just listen.

I've tried this a few times with Terrance McKenna audio, but I always seem to fall asleep :mrgreen:

 

[HeartCore]

I've tried this a few times with Terrance McKenna audio, but I always seem to fall asleep

Really??? Man that 10 hour lecture about food of the Gods kept me awake during my 12 hour drive home from south France :)

 

[Guest]

Yeah I know, it's really bad this guy can go on and on and it still remains so very interresting. Yesterday it hapend again! At a friend, we we're listening to the Tree of Knowledge and I fell asleep
But that was also because I smoked weed again, I haven't smoked weed in a long time so I was to stoned. I know again why I've quit weed :mrgreen:

But I wan't to listend to it again, with some coffee during the day, without being stoned :)

But when I called my girlfriend in between the Tree of Knowledge she said my voice sounded a lot more energetic then the day before, like something happend in my mind. And yes it did, the things Terrence McKenna says do have a big impact and I get more hope for the future.

 

[tryptonaut]

...and additionally McKenna's voice and intonation are like a meditation of its own ;)

 

[Guest]

The man is a raging source of psychedelic information... I still think it's a wonder that he brings it this calm :)

 

[ProStoner]

...and additionally McKenna's voice and intonation are like a meditation of its own ;)

very very true :)