MDA

[spice]

hey y'all... A lot of confusion and misinformation going around the commercial pill market. I heard some guys talking the other day about these 'X pills soaked in acid'....after I finished laughing, I said that theres no such animal, and they argued that they were tripping by the time their 'roll' was over, and they knew when they were tripping, and I couldnt tell them anything contrary.

So, maybe they will read this and understand.

There are three different 'kinds' of x on the market.

MDA is the first one I'll talk about. It is the longest-lived of the three. A roll on mda is usually 8-12 hrs minimum and yes, you are kind of tripping by the time it ends, with good visuals, etc.. mda also is the hardest on the body, leaving one with that 'ran over by a truck' feeling. I especially notice radical distortions of peoples faces, and body language (bordering on outright telepathy) with powerful doses of mda. An incredible substance. It was first discovered in 1909 by a german chemist named Gordon Alles, and was used for a short time on the open market as a weight loss aid. MDA is the smallest molecule of these three, and because of that, it penetrates the blood brain barrier easier that the other substances. The blood brain barrier is one that evolved as a protection from plant toxins...for this reason, mda has been more implicated in neuron damage studies than its counterparts mdma or mdea.This is also why it lasts longer and takes less. At uber levels, it is a hallucinogen second to none, right there w/ mescaline.

 

[Faust]

And the other 2?

 

[alphasnail]

actually my friend there is such a thing of xtc pills with lsd on them, what people do is take regular liquid acid and squeeze a couple drops from the bottle on the pill, i used to do it all the time and buy it from suppliers that did it. but im not saying your wrong about the mda, and that your friends were wrong or right. but just wanted to make sure that you new that there is such animal.

 

[spice]

while you are correct, in my area even though theres a lot of x pills coming through, there isnt and hasnt been any acid in ages, and anyone who had some REAL LSD could sell it for more by itself...

on top of the fact that anytime I've ran across 'liquid acid' in the past, it always ended up being some crappy LAA (lysergic acid amides) which some
fella got by soaking woodrose seeds in ethanol.

the guys I was referring to in the conversation I overheard sell bunches of commercial pills, usually they have 5-6 different kinds at any given time, so
in the context of the situation, I was pretty positive it was MDA.

 

[spice]

....oh yeah, the other two....

MDMA is another compound sold as X. In my book, when I generally speak of x, I refer to mdma exclusively.

While I am quick to sing the praises of mda, I will tell you all that MDMA is a much friendlier compound, with less rocketship power to it, but in it's own right very powerful. MDMA can be what I like to call a 'subtle' hallucinogen.

For me, my sense of touch is magnified to an almost unbearale level when I take MDMA, and it affects my hearing in strange ways too. The rollercoaster euphoria is incredible. Sex, if you're one of the lucky ones who can actually have it while using this stuff, can be awesome.

I honestly can't find a negative w/ MDMA.


#3) MDEA is the other one and a lot of commercial pills are mdea. MDEA is a longer molecule than the other two, and it has more trouble crossing the blood brain barrier. As w/ mda, the length of the alkyl chain affects the effects profile and duration. MDEA only lasts 2 hours or so, and it usually leaves you all at once, suddenly leaving you completely straight and wondering what happened. It's not, in my book, preferable to the other two. you need way more.
So why would people use this if they are naking pills?

Yeah, its always the same answer, money....

any reaction that makes mdma will make mdea w/ the substitution of ethylamine for methylamine. Ethylamine is a better nucleophile, which just means it reacts more efficiently and yields more when reacted w/ MDP2P.

MDEAs effects are more disorienting and generally isnt as good as the other two, UNLESS you have a lot, and then it becomes a powerful psychedelic in its own right.

I've mixed them all at the same time, just to see, and it was just like mda....
so, live and learn...

 

[Faust]

....oh yeah, the other two....

MDMA is another compound sold as X. In my book, when I generally speak of x, I refer to mdma exclusively.

While I am quick to sing the praises of mda, I will tell you all that MDMA is a much friendlier compound, with less rocketship power to it, but in it's own right very powerful. MDMA can be what I like to call a 'subtle' hallucinogen.

For me, my sense of touch is magnified to an almost unbearale level when I take MDMA, and it affects my hearing in strange ways too. The rollercoaster euphoria is incredible. Sex, if you're one of the lucky ones who can actually have it while using this stuff, can be awesome.

I honestly can't find a negative w/ MDMA.


#3) MDEA is the other one and a lot of commercial pills are mdea. MDEA is a longer molecule than the other two, and it has more trouble crossing the blood brain barrier. As w/ mda, the length of the alkyl chain affects the effects profile and duration. MDEA only lasts 2 hours or so, and it usually leaves you all at once, suddenly leaving you completely straight and wondering what happened. It's not, in my book, preferable to the other two. you need way more.
So why would people use this if they are naking pills?

Yeah, its always the same answer, money....

any reaction that makes mdma will make mdea w/ the substitution of ethylamine for methylamine. Ethylamine is a better nucleophile, which just means it reacts more efficiently and yields more when reacted w/ MDP2P.

MDEAs effects are more disorienting and generally isnt as good as the other two, UNLESS you have a lot, and then it becomes a powerful psychedelic in its own right.

I've mixed them all at the same time, just to see, and it was just like mda....
so, live and learn...

You seem to know alot about x. Can you tell me if it's common to get pain in your stomach and some nauseau? I've had to throw up a couple of times now from x and had a some belly aching from it. I don't like going to a party and having to run to the toilet to throw up so this is why I'm quite hesitant to use it now.

 

[spice]

hi,
yes, nausea is very common w/ MDA, MDMA, & MDEA.

There are a few things you can do to help. One of our favorite ways of minimizing stomach pain is to fast all day prior to ingesting, and not only does this help, you get higher.

Also, dissolving your x in orange juice really helps too. I never used to take it this way but I tried it and found I liked it. It's as close as you can get to taking mdma powder.

Somewhere else on this board I talked about the formulation and tablet-ing process of making ecstasy. Formulating the ingredients that go into a pressed pill is an artform.

If you've ever taken pills that seem to sit on your stomach forever and take an hour and change to hit you, its because theres too much binder/filler in the tabletting formulation. When I used to make x and had access to pure 99% powder, it would hit in 10-15 mins and when it did, it hit you all at once, w/ zero stomach distress.

I personally have never gotten sick on x, but I have an insane tolerance for nausea and generally a pretty solid stomach, but my gf is one of those people that throw up everytime she looks at a pill. Fasting helped her a lot, and then we started predissolving in oj and she only gets a little nausea this way.

 

[Hyperion1980]

I think I hade once mda tablets, they were sold as Ferrari's on the market. I took one and it felt like normal mdma, but when I took 2 the world changed. I was tripping ballz on a goa party. A blacklight was becoming my private TV for the night, the blacklight changes into a TV screen showing racing cars, trains moving, ... It was fun! Objects where rotating all the time, ...

In fact I thought my first trip was on mushrooms, but in fact, how can I forget the incredible evening on MDA!!!

 

[spice]

yep, thats prety much the description of MDA.

I took about a half gram of MDA on new years eve last year ( not this past, the one before) and took what was a pretty fantastic voyage.

At the end of it for a couple of hours I was seeing 'electricity' of different colors oozing out of people...in individual colors....

my gf had yellow sparks randomly flying off of her, another person had green ones... blue ones coming off of my own arm..and this wasn't the suggestion of trails or 'I think I saw..' no, this was continual, vivid, lasting imagery.
Maybe it had something to do w/ bio-electricity, I don't know, but it was really cool.

 

[DevXavier]

MDMA/MDEA is converted to MDA in your liver. If the liver wouldn't do that, MDMA would not be psycedelic on its own. The MDxx counts on the MDA to be psychedelic.

MDEA last quite longer than 2 hours, as you stated, more in the 2.5-4 hours range. It last shorter than MDA & MDMA indeed, but the high is a lot more speedlike and less of the "hug feeling".

MDA is about 5 times more neurotoxic than MDMA.

 

[spice]

I find mdea to be really weird, but I take pretty large doses.

It makes me a little dizzy,too. Most of my friends found that somewhere around the 2 hr mark it just left them cold sober. I found that it doesnt really 'leave' you like that, but that the 'major' effects do. It is a subtle creature, and if it weren't for the fact that it was discovered in a time when all the others were, it would be considered a great psychedelic.

I also find the hugdrug effect to be mostly absent w/ mdea, but not completely.

 

[Brugmansia]

7% of the MDMA in your body turns out into MDA, which means that someone with a high tolerance who takes in a huge amount of E, may build up a concentration of MDMA that is enough to experience noticeable effects of MDA.

Also a noticeable difference between MDA and E is the duration, the high of MDA can last up to 8 hours and is generally less euphoric and speedy, but causes a stronger spacy feeling and let's experience the user a more psychedelic effect.

MDE and MDEA is closer related to Amphetamine when it comes to the effects in the human body. Though a slight spacy feeling is common as well.

Nausea is caused due to a filled stomach or either a concentration of eaten food that still needs to pass your stomach to the blood. Also, make sure you don't have any alcohol in your blood 3 days before the experience.

If you want a strong effect, make sure you hardly eat any carbohydrates, and do an intake with no food circulating in your blood, except for sodium and water. Maybe the best thing is a slighty hungry feeling.

The hang over of MDA is definitely stronger dan with MDMA, I had pills with MDA in it, during the party it happenend a few times that I misinterpretended the size of the hall. And the distance between me and other people. For example, I thought they all stood right in front of me and whispering when talking. While in fact the whispering voices were just the entire crowd talking.

MDA in it's pure form is rare, but obtain it if you get the chance to, according Shulgin there's no cross-over between MDA and MDMA, which means that they don't interact with each other and decreases both each other's effects.

I saw you were asking on Partyflock for it a while ago DevXavier.

 

[yppaxe]

Hi there all! I read your last posts spice, and they are quite interesting, I was a little bit away of this website, but for curiosity I came in today to see what is happening around. I´m finishing my graduation in pharmaceutical sciences this year, a lot of stuff, brain confusion and desintegrative reality questions with the use of psychedelic substances and without the use of psychedelic substances. A lot of people laugh and have a fantastic time on substances like LSD or psylocibin, i just get stupid with violent cuestions of what we are, where are we, what the hell is this.. not so fun as I would like...psychedelic drugs are not well seen in the society, mainly for their bad use, that´s why the laws (what is this??) and politics just try to clean them of society...but all the legal and ilegal stuff is the most subjective thing to talk about, we all now why, the most funny study I saw by the "scientific" community says that LSD is carcinogenic and blah blah blah, when the social method of taking nicotine cause millions of lung cancers, we live in a ridicule world made of cultural and historical hipocrisy and ignorance. I have the book of Total Synthesis II, is very well keeped and I have a lot of respect about the contents, thanks to all who contributed to such a underground good book. I have the Fester books too, a little bit different about underground contents...but ok, that´s what I have from the "yankee" bees, here in europe there are good underground organic chemists, but the yankee is much more globalized, in this aspects and in all the others, some of them good some of them badly. When I see people talking about synthesis in the internet it makes me laugh, I have seen very strange reactions and nomenclature, a lot of scientists, a lot of prophetical conclusions, and a lot of people that want to make xtc, mda, tma pta tta bba cca bba and teiteitei whitout knowing what is a doble bound. I just don´t think that publish organic chemistry in a site like this contributes to the interest of psychonaut community of the cannabis leave, and it can cause some accidents and a much more closed space to move. It looked curious to me your association of molecular weight and the brain blood barrier cross, molecular size is a factor, but it doesn´t give any answer to efficiency, dose and potency. Substances cross the bbb being water soluble, when lipophilicity is a crucial factor too, it´s curious and very complex the selection process of the bbb, the most weird molecules cross it, and the most simple sometimes don´t. Talking about psychedelics...look at a dyethilamide lysergic acid molecule, VERY BIG, dose: some micrograms... Here in europe there are a lot of MDMA buyers, but few MDMA users, MDA has a much easier synthesis route and the chemicals used on it are not so watched. In total synthesis the number 1 talks about mda, and not mdma, it has no color of simplicity making one or the other. Get safrol as I read in USA is not so easy as here, but we all could be cookers, and the safrol aroma can never be extincted. Well.... i just wanted to give some impressions of my actual mental state vision, sorry about my poor english. To all....enjoy this trip.

 

[spice]

first things first...

I didnt come up with the theory of the BBB allowing selective absorption of the different chain lengths. that was Dr. Shulgin, in a book you may or may not know and love, PIHKAL.

Fester should stick to a subject he knows, like speed, 'cause he aint no x chemist, or an acid chemist.

You're welcome to your opinion about whether or not any and all of this (my chem related posts) are contributory, but if you think you're going to;

a) dissuade me from doing it

or

b) question my motivations


you should read all of what I've posted, carefully, and reevaluate just what it is you think I am trying to do....

( psst- its called 'help' )

 

[spice]

...and not having safrole..?

Thats the point of all these posts....

safrole can be gotten MANY other ways than sassafras oil....ever hear of the 'Mexican Pepperleaf' ?

( I've gotten it to 'go native' at several areas of the gulf south region)

what about making it from clove oil ?

or piperonal (just as good) from vanilla ?

..the point is, knowledge is power....


and the basic quest of all psychonauts is for knowledge, be it of themselves or other things....

if you read my posts you will ( I hope ) catch the underlying message.

 

[spice]

....more to the point, there may be people who are at 'germination stage'
in their journey and are psychonauts right now, but may become interested enough IF the subject is broached and explained carefully, to become chemists later. Chemists that help create new,more evolved psychonauts.


Anyone who thinks I'm posting this stuff as a cookbook REALLY needs to reread everything that I have posted and try to get the underlying theme and purpose. I promise you, I have more lofty aspirations than becoming Uncle Fester.

Also, I get testy when anyone tries to suppress knowledge. This is a personal quirk of mine, and no offense intended, to anyone, but unless an administrator of the site emails me privately and tells me what I am doing isn't necessary, I'll continue, until I've said all I have to say.
(don't hold your breath)

 

[yppaxe]

HI there again, spice and all the readers. The last thing I wanted to do was provocate or judge you, we all want good moments and have some fun and learn something when it`s possible and not to get piced off in a forum. We all have different points of views, and that is what make things interesting, if we all wear red life would be monotone. Fist of alll, you get touched with the fact that the increase of lipophilicity doesn`t give more potence to a drug, sometimes it does sometimes it doesn`t, the bbb is not for plant toxins is for a lot more things than it, but ok, i understood what you tried to say. Look at the DMT pharmacology, for example: The drug DET is active at the same dose as DMT and the effects last slightly longer, about one and a half to two hours. DPT is longer-acting still and has fewer autonomic side effects. In therapeutic experiments its action continues for one and a half to two hours at the lowest effective dose, 15 to 30mg, and for four to six hours at doses in the range of 60 to 150mg. Both DET and DPT are milder than DMT. Dibutyltryptamine (DBT) and higher substitutions are inert, but other synthetic drugs related to DMT may be psychoactive. In this case if you increase the alkylic chains you don`t have more potence. It has much more to do with the receptors, if you have a big apolar receptor the increase of lipophilicity is quite important and it will increase a lot of potency, if the receptor has some polar aminoacids changes in the structure of the drug to give it polarity are welcome. If we know all the receptors structures we could design perfect drugs, without the side effects and hang overs that we have at this moment. Shulgin made a miraculous job, he is one my Nobel Prizes, and he knows a lot of chemistry, psychopharmacology and aabout psychedelics, when I read phikal for the first time I tasted all the lines so, don`t think i don`t respect his job and his opinions about structure activity relationships, he almost wrote laws and not ideas. I didn´t understand the stuff about more lofty aspirations than uncle fester. All the discussions about synthesis are nice, i like to give opinions, some of them extremely wrong others not so wrong but it`s fun and a big pleasure to see that i am not alone in this chemistry world. But organic chemistry is not cooking, it can have a protocol but it has to be understood, you got to now what is happpening there, because you will miss some steps and you have to think about ph and what the hell happened there. Anyone can think, woowww i`ll do the synthesis that I saw in google, I`ll make 180 grams of MDMA and 50 euros each gram I will get rich, well try it, but become handicapped doesn`t pay 3 tons of mdma. Easy money is an objective to everyone, but that is not my point of view about chemistry, and making chemical synthesis showroom dummies would not give good results, that`s a fact. I would like to talk about chemical syntheses, discuss, give opinions, have fun and learn, and if possible teach something wich is a tasty fruit of the knowledge. Don`t think I ever wanted to provocate you cause your answer was too acidic for my view. Have fun and keep enjoying it....

 

[spice]

Well said.

I am sorry if I get a tad defensive. You are right.

What you said is all very interesting, and for the most part I agree with you.
But if you don't ascribe the difference in activity to different chain lengths when the rest of the molecule is identical, I can't imagine what you would
say is responsible.

The ONLY thmg different in the three examples I gave was the alkyl chain length, so whether it's because of the receptor mechanics or not, I dunno.
But when these are the only differences, its a conclusion thats really easy to reach...

if it walks like a duck and quacks...

 

[spice]

..also, you said that the blood brain barrier ' is not for plant toxins it is a lot more than that'

this is where our lack of a common language hurts us. I didn't say, or imply, that the BBB is exclusively (only) for plant toxins. I understand that it isn't as black and white as that. As I understand it, the BBB is a multi-layered densely packed sheet of fatty cellular material which evolved ( and here you must 'buy into ' at least one aspect of evolutionary theory to go with this) as a helpful aid in the defense of the brain AND as a filter of sorts for amino acids, etc.

If it evolved, then, it evolved over time, in response to a STIMULI.
Deductive reasoning implies, and strongly, that this stimuli was the repetitive omnivorous ingestion of plants.

The entire chain of reasoning seems pretty solid to me, and I would really like your opinion as to what IS responsible for the different potencies, durations, and effects, when the ONLY thing different is the alkyl chain length on C2?

You implied that we (Dr. Shulgin and myself) were off base but you didn't offer a hypothesis of your own.....?

 

[spice]

also, I see what you were saying w/ the DET DPT examples, but I don't know if that analogy will hold up (tryptamines, amphetamines) because the entire rest of the tryptamine molecule is so radically different in shape and polarities,
your example muddies the waters for me more than it clarifies...

when the rest of the molecule is so different, analogies based on structure-activity seem to get less and less valid, from what I've read...anyway, good point, and I will research this area more...