Is the universe intelligent?
#1
So what do you think.
Is the universe intelligent?
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#2
We are intelligent (relatively), the universe created us -> the universe is intelligent. That's what I think.
Tout est vrai.
« Il arrive que la folie soit partagée par tous, on l'appelle alors la normalité. »
Artisan de Liberté
« La discipline est la différence entre ce que tu veux maintenant et ce que tu veux le plus. »

Anna
Le partage crée l'abondance.
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#3
well first of all what exactly or approximately really is the universe??? is it something entirely scientifical or maybe it's something totally spiritual. what is it for you?? what is your perspective??? is your perspective clear or are you brainwashed? do you reduce yourself for TV and shit like that??? maybe it's a bit besides the point, but maybe not entirely...
science and spirituality seem to have had big problems with each other in the past. maybe think of for example einstein who supposedly was a scientifical person, but also a bit a spiritual person. i think the problem is when governments abuse science and use it for wars etc etc...
a quote from einstein: "two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and i'm not sure about the former."
so, it's probably like we as the "normal people" have to wake up in some special sense. for example good and evil... i guess it's more or less logical that what for someone is good for the other is not so good or even evil?? just look at all kinds of stories etc etc... how "pictures" of good and evil are painted. but what is it then "really"??
the crucial point is probably, it's better to "really" be able to make up your own opinion and feel for yourself.
and then... what really is intelligence?? and what about infinity??? well, if you ask me the universe is probably intelligent in its own way whatever that means and incredibly big.
big intelligence vs small intelligence? heart intelligence vs brain intelligence?? intelligent = good , stupid = evil???
lol no...well i just really hope you can figure out the relatively basic mistake here by yourself and sensibly draw a meaningful conclusion...
maybe now a last idea ... what about cycles in context to intelligence of the universe or simply the universe?
or different sorts of universes?!... hmm btw i always loved stargazing..



peace
i'm so disgusted by the world of today.. Sad
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#4
yes sure but the infinitely large see through the small ...

both think and live together while the little he does not remember anything ...

the univers is not smarter than us, but it is subtly neutral .
some interaction is possible though...
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#5
IMHO the universe is ruled by cosmic entities, beings of pure virtue and kindness, who ares not apprehensible at our level of awakening. Therefore for me the universe is the ultimate accomplissement of intelligence.

As Shakyamuni said, there is three thousand world in a grain of sand. A grain of sand is like a universe and there are such beings of intelligence as us living in it ; there are also such planets,mountains and rivers in it.

If the universe is not made of pure intelligence i really don't know of what it is made.
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#6
The American Oxford Dictionary defines the universe as, “all existing matter and space considered as a whole. The universe is not an agent, has no mind, has no will, and cannot act. Claiming intelligence for the universe is as ridiculous as claiming intelligence for a supermarket. The universe and the supermarket are both designed by intelligence, they are both stores of inanimate objects, and are frequented by intelligent creatures.
Everything IS awesome/ Everything is COOL when you’re part of a team.

— A lesbian and her sister and vice versa
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#7
The Rickster a écrit :The American Oxford Dictionary defines the universe as, “all existing matter and space considered as a whole. The universe is not an agent, has no mind, has no will, and cannot act. Claiming intelligence for the universe is as ridiculous as claiming intelligence for a supermarket. The universe and the supermarket are both designed by intelligence, they are both stores of inanimate objects, and are frequented by intelligent creatures.


Designed by intelligenge ?
How do you know?

According to you the universe has no will and no intelligenge and can not act. The universe is created? By intelligenge?
(God) and the universe itself is stupid. So where is this intelligence? And you say there are intelligent creatures in the universe? But the universe itself has no intelligence?

So where do these intelligent creatures come from. And where does the intelligence that created (designed) the universe come from? And where is it now?
Is intelligence not part of the universe?
Are intelligent creatures not part of the universe. And if intelligence does not come from the universe, where does it come from.

And the most important question. What is intelligence?
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#8
Intelligence is one thing. But what about consiousness?

We may think of humans as intelligent or conscious and some might say humans have more consciousness or are more intelligent then other beings.

And maybe there are beings somewhere in the universe, that may think of humans as stupid animals without much intelligence or consciousness.
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#9
Finarfin a écrit :Designed by intelligenge ?
How do you know?

According to you the universe has no will and no intelligenge and can not act. The universe is created? By intelligenge?
(God) and the universe itself is stupid. So where is this intelligence? And you say there are intelligent creatures in the universe? But the universe itself has no intelligence?

So where do these intelligent creatures come from. And where does the intelligence that created (designed) the universe come from? And where is it now?
Is intelligence not part of the universe?
Are intelligent creatures not part of the universe. And if intelligence does not come from the universe, where does it come from.

And the most important question. What is intelligence?


[SIZE=3]There are many ways to determine the universe is the result of intelligent design. Through reason, you can examine the arguments made in both the Ontological Argument and the Cosmological Argument. More importantly, there are spiritual means, which are more important, for arriving at the conclusion that God exists and did create the universe (it’s theologically superflous to point out the potential of a multiverses: if multiverses exist, they would all be included in one enveloping universe).

Idk what would make you suggest that the universe not being intelligent is the same as it being stupid. Stupid, afterall, would be a descriptor for a being with lower relative intelligence. The universe, as the totality of material things, has no ego, it is not a being. It would be ridiculous to call it stupid because it is incapable of intelligence.

I realize that this may be confusing. The confusion is compounded when we use the singular pronoun “it” when referring to the universe. Where in actuality, “ universe" is the word that has come to describe the entire collection of materiality. Thus, universe exists as an abstract, not an actual unit within material reality. Abstractions, or ideas, are discernable by human intelligence, but they are wholly incapable of thought.

All animate and inanimate objects come from the creator, who is God.

Intelligence: it’s not that complicated: the ability to posess and apply knowledge.
[/SIZE]
Everything IS awesome/ Everything is COOL when you’re part of a team.

— A lesbian and her sister and vice versa
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#10
Lotre a écrit :We are intelligent (relatively), the universe created us -> the universe is intelligent. That's what I think.


My thoughts exactly. mrgreen


So saying that the universe isn't conscious and intelligent is like denying that you yourself are conscious and intelligent, or else that you are part of the universe.

Lots of people... like almost everyone in the US.... seem as though they think on some fundamental level that "the world" or "the universe" is something separate from themselves, alien and unrelated. But I think that this is really kind of unhealthy and it's a big step forward to see yourself as really, physically connected and a part of all of this. Smile It made you after all, and you're still in it.
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#11
The Rickster a écrit :

[SIZE=3][FONT=garamond]There are many ways to determine the universe is the result of intelligent design. Through reason, you can examine the arguments made in both the Ontological Argument and the Cosmological Argument. More importantly, there are spiritual means, which are more important, for arriving at the conclusion that God exists and did create the universe (it’s theologically superflous to point out the potential of a multiverses: if multiverses exist, they would all be included in one enveloping universe).


Idk what would make you suggest that the universe not being intelligent is the same as it being stupid. Stupid, afterall, would be a descriptor for a being with lower relative intelligence. The universe, as the totality of material things, has no ego, it is not a being. It would be ridiculous to call it stupid because it is incapable of intelligence.

I realize that this may be confusing. The confusion is compounded when we use the singular pronoun “it” when referring to the universe. Where in actuality, “ universe" is the word that has come to describe the entire collection of materiality. Thus, universe exists as an abstract, not an actual unit within material reality. Abstractions, or ideas, are discernable by human intelligence, but they are wholly incapable of thought.

All animate and inanimate objects come from the creator, who is God.

Intelligence: it’s not that complicated: the ability to posess and apply knowledge.
[/SIZE]


Sorry i don, t get it. This does not make any sense to me. How can you say the universe is not a being? Because it got no ego?
Do you need a ego to be? Do you need an ego to posses and apply knowledge?
If you say the universe is not a being you sort of say there is no universe (makes no sense).

I think you are looking at intelligence from a human perspective. The universe has no human intelligence i agree. However human intelligence itself is part of the universe. Maybe there is a other form of intelligence. The intelligence of nature. Something that includes but is much bigger then human intelligence maybe intelligence is not the right word for what i am thinking of.
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#12
Finarfin a écrit :I think you are looking at intelligence from a human perspective. The universe has no human intelligence i agree.


Then what and where are you? A non-human that exists independently of the universe? Tongue

Citation :However human intelligence itself is part of the universe.


Precisely! mrgreen


But I think there's much greater intelligences in the universe than just that of humanity's. Many different forms, many different levels.....
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#13
What's scarier : that stars and asteroids or dumb people would somehow participate in the universe's global intelligence ? mrgreen
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#14
Larry_Golade a écrit :What's scarier : that stars and asteroids or dumb people would somehow participate in the universe's global intelligence ? mrgreen


I don't think it's something to be afraid of as much as wondered at... If you look at a patch of plants trying to grow up between some rocks you'll see that some do better than others, so there's a place for the healthy ones and the less fortunate ones too, but I think everything has its place and reason in the natural scheme of things.
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#15
The universe has been set up in an exquisitely specific way so that evolution could produce the people that are sitting here today and we could use our intelligence to talk about the universe. We see a formidable power in the ability to use our minds and the tools we've created to gather evidence, to use our inferential abilities to develop theories, to test the theories, and to understand the universe at increasingly precise levels.

I wrote a lengthy piece on the existence of God or a conscious Universe, I feel it would be insightful to this thread. You can check it out here (no retailers my friend.. in the link there are.. anyway = D) :


Is there a God[I]? My Speculation

[/I][Image: cima_da_conegliano2c_god_the_father-1.jpg]

You may feel like this article is incoherent and back and forth. I am not taking any hard stance on any of the ideas of God I present. I’m simply bouncing around ideas that I often speculate, sharing my opinion of what could be.
I don’t subscribe to the idea that some old extremely jealous yet loving bearded white dude lives in the sky. Some people of the religious persuasion believe in this and others do not. Still, from those who don’t believe in this particular notion of God, they still believe in a higher power. But what is a higher power? What makes this higher power God? By higher power does one refer to it as a higher power that gave birth to the universe and controls our fate? Do we have to pray to it? Does it even care about us? If it does care about us then why is there a great disparity in the amount of people who are suffering vs people who are not. Why is most of the world poor? Is it because they lack faith, is it God’s plan? Is it God’s plan to have some starving kid in Sudan orphaned by tribal war? These notions of God never resonated with me. And if God is the most powerful thing in existence, why does he need Jesus to connect with us? After all, he is God isn’t he? He created us, yet why would he impose a limitation of connecting with his own creation? As you can see I am no fan of religion…. yet I still don’t consider myself an Atheist.

[Image: cosmic-jesus.jpg]

I maintain an Agnostic position on this because there is no harm in saying you don’t know. People act like we have to pick a side but if there is really no solid indisputable tangible evidence on either side, you’re really left in limbo. I have subjective opinions about the nature of God, but I am not afraid to question and analyze them. I am always constantly tweaking and adjusting my perspective based on my experiences. In my opinion I feel there isn’t enough hard facts about the nature of God to fully commit to the belief.
The popularity of quantum physics has left many to feel that the line between science and God is blurring. There is a lot of strange stuff that happens with Quantum Physics but that doesn’t exactly prove that God exist. It tells us that the universe is stranger than we think and the nature of consciousness is more powerful and profound than we think, but still, doesn’t mean it has proven the existence of God.
What it rather does is that it provides an argument against the atheist philosophy of materialism (or “physicalism”Wink, which is one of the main arguments atheist use to disprove the existence of God. Materialism maintains that all of reality is reducible to matter and its interactions. Materialism sees the material world to be a closed system of cause and effect, untouched by the influence of any non-physical realities. Quantum physics brings us more insight into the nature of consciousness and how it effects our material world. I don’t necessarily feel it has anything to do with God.
Its possible that consciousness is quantum information that can exist outside of the body indefinitely dissipating into the universe as Dr. Stuart Hameroff suggests. This is a viable hypothesis since no one has been able to land a serious blow to his theory and more evidences is beginning to emerge to support it.
Our current view is that the brain is a computer made of billions of neurons without significant difference, behaving similar to switches or bits in a computer. Computer scientist feel that if computers reach a critical level of computation and complexity, they will pass the threshold needed for consciousness to emerge. In my opinion, this would be nothing more than a sophisticated simulation because I think consciousness is actually intrinsic to the universe. The brain is more than a mechanical computer, but more of a biological antenna. Consciousness comes from outside the body and is manifested into a human experience through our brain so that we can process and experience the physical sensations of our reality through our bodies. Quantum processes in our brain connect us to consciousness that is outside of our body. It is consciousness outside of our body that is not in any form, but when channeled through our brain, it takes on a human form, a human perspective.
I personally don’t feel that God and a conscious self aware existence outside of a physical biological body have to be inextricably linked. We could very well be living in a lawless land and it could still be that way even after we pass on to whatever reality is next for a dead person.
It can also be possible that there is no omnipresent conscious entity that permeates the universe. It can be possible that this world was not created by a God. Most people I propose this idea to say “Well, if the world is so complex, there had to be a God that created it”. My response to that statement is “If God created the world, who created God?” and I’m usually told that God has no beginning and no end and no one else created God. How interesting that people cannot perceive the Universe as something that has no beginning and no end, but God is seen as infinite. Why can’t God have a creator if there is one?
It is scientifically recognized and accepted that the entire universe was once condensed into a particle smaller than an atom. It’s widely accepted in the scientific community that time is relative and you would experience it significantly slower if you were traveling near the speed of light compared to everyone else who wasn’t traveling that fast. Quantum mechanics recognizes that particles can exist in 2 places at once. Reality is stranger than we think so in my view, it’s not so far fetched to believe that things sprang into existence without the assistance of a higher powerful conscious entity. Or things may have always been here with no beginning and no end. Possibly endless cycles of Big Bangs occurring over and over again every X billion years or so.
Despite my beliefs I still consider myself a spiritual person and I believe strongly that consciousness is forever. After all, I don’t feel that one needs religion or belief in God to navigate your spirituality. My views are that Consciousness does not die when the body dies, it is everlasting and continues after our time on earth. So if I believe in everlasting consciousness, how can I not believe in God? Well….. why does there even have to be a God that exist in the physical and none physical world to keep us in existence? Why does there have to be a God that interacts with our reality? That makes people feel uncomfortable, hence making them want to believe in a God, a father, a protector, teacher and giver of life.

[Image: neurons-blue-brain.jpg]

If there is a God it is probably you and me. Rather than an all knowing consciousness entity that is separate from us, I think there may very well be a collective consciousness that carries itself throughout the entire Universe. The consciousness of every living thing, yours, mine, friends, family, strangers, etc are all individual neurons in the great brain of the universe. We have our individual consciousness which belongs only to our individual self, the micro, or the Yin, and we have our collective consciousness that we share with everything in existence, the macro consciousness, the yang aspect of our consciousness. If there is a God, God is the collective sum of all of us. God is not something that is separate from us, that we have to pray to. God is not something that is above us, we are not beneath God, because in all likely hood we are God. We are all part of the fabric of God.
You are always one with God but you can make yourself more in sync with the rhythm of God by raising your vibration. Raising your vibration in the sense that you do things that are more aligned with the flow of God consciousness. It’s like running on a treadmill. You are always on it but if you run too fast or too slow you are out of sync with it, making for an unpleasant jog. These are all actions that align yourself closer to the nature of God.
God can also be a field, energy, vibration, or all of the above that is intimately connected with consciousness. No one can really say whether it has its own consciousness or if it is the collective consciousness of all living things in the universe thus making it intelligent in that sense, (or both!) but its interaction with living things is manifested through consciousness.
God could be like a gigantic consciousness computer. All the 1’s and 0’s that make up the software are our own individual consciousness. The 1 and 0’s represent the duality of existence. Yin and yang, Positive and Negative, Male and Female, etc. Collective consciousness is an awareness that emerges at the transpersonal stage of consciousness with our identities expanding beyond our egos to make the software of the universe run.
God is like the greater larger collective mother and father nature of the Multiverse. Although you are always in it, and apart of it, you return to a closer interaction, a closer bond with it when you pass away in this physical world, and depending on how much you have developed yourself spiritually in this physical world and how you continue to enhance your spiritual awareness in the other planes and dimensions, past lives and so forth you can ascend to the higher realms of God and become closer to the creative force of the Multiverse.

[Image: astral-voyage.jpeg]

I believe that there are energies and forces at play beyond our normal awareness but still directly or indirectly effect our reality, the same way that dark matter is virtually undetectable (without observing it’s gravitational effect) yet it is a crucial element to the existence of our galaxy, a cosmic container of stars. But i’m not entirely sure if these energies and forces are conscious and self aware entities. Perhaps these forces are something that we can tap into, or it could be something our consciousness needs to survive the same way we need air to survive. This is often referred to as Source, the Ether, or the Divine Matrix, an energy that exist that we are all connected to and facilitates the existence of consciousness. But the dependency of something to exist does not make that what is depended on God. After all, we need air, but air is not God. I think the ether to our consciousness is what air is to our bodies. This is all speculation, things I ponder upon, but like I said, I have no way to prove this, just an internal feeling I have.
I ponder all sides of faith, speculation, and skepticism. There is no shame in saying you don’t know. Most people feel like they have to take side but if you are not convinced either way, then you can only speculate and be open to new information and experiences that will strengthen either side of the debate.
I am convinced that there is life after death. I strongly believe that consciousness exist beyond physical death. But I don’t necessarily subscribe to the idea that there has to be a God that exist to keep your consciousness alive.
God is like a faint whisper. You know you heard something, you turn around to see who whispered, but no one is there. And you scratch your head wondering if you actually heard something. That is God to me.
If there is a God, I don’t understand why he/she would make it so damn complicated to connect with him/her. If I was God I would just F*ckin show myself to the world and not make my presence so God damn ambiguous, and not using a burning bush to talk to people when I can just instantly appear and talk to you. And I would make sure other people saw you talking to me to me so everyone around you wouldn’t think you were crazy.

Check out my blog for Psychonauts jtwiz.com

[Image: f6dcbd23-9a23-4620-abca-592bf52f1bb7.png]
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#16
Thanks for this very interessting and elaborate post.

I do not believe in (a creator) god.
My believes are more in line with the chinees philosophy of taoism.

If god created the universe who created god?
Or if you believe in the big bang. What was before the big bang?
I do not claim to know the answer.

I do not believe in a afterlife. I do not believe my individualised consiousness is going to exist beyond death.
According to taoism the universal force from which everything flows.

Everything is made up of energy.
I believe that when i die my energy or life force will flow back to the tao and will be transformed into new energy structures.
It is often said that we are made up of stardust. This is true and it is a perfect example of how energy reforms and transforms itself into different forms.
It, s like when drop (individual consiousness) is returning to the ocean and becomes one with the ocean. There is nothing supernatural or paranormal about it.
There does not need to be a god or anything.
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#17
I will get back to this. But ask yourself this too:
Are complex cells intelligent?
I find the God/Jesus card very interesting, but it will take some time for me to elaborate.
But if cells are intelligent, are we dealing with an intelligent design?
And why would God be a Lord in our skies in stead of the whole manifest itself, in- and outside.
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#18
Well it's a question with different answers imho. Is the universe intelligent? What do you define as universe and as intelligent? Is the tiniest part in an atom (part of) this universe? I think the universe isn't intelligent per se, but responding to laws. These laws brought forth intelligence. Once life seeded the earth it's been going up and it's been knowing what to do ever since. It gets born and it does what it is set out to do. It doesn’t ask, moan or repent, it simply acts on instinct and impuls. Where is this desire and impuls for life coming from one asks. When you read in books about evolution how organisms in co evolution create an entire "universe" of their own, you may ask yourself: As above, so below? What is pushing these instincts in organisms to get where we came up? A higher power ? God? Does it care? Of course not, not in the way you may wish. It just obeys certain laws and organisms find a way to adapt to those laws. Humans, and humans alone have overcome these laws. Laws which are needed to be respected for the species to evolve. I think it isn't about higher powers or god, but by what's right under our nose. We know so much about evolution, yet we look apathic at our own decline. We overproduce, we overconsume, we exploit everything we get our hands on, put everything in culture by not looking at our neighbour (bio diversity) for one second. We just watch them die off and look for gods in books while the laws are clear for a donkey to read!
We humans have evolved in a very special way, but we abuse our powers. All the (gods and) animals should be looking at us with pride; rather their terrified by the slightest sight of us. This white dude Jesus seems to give absolution for all those barbaric fests mankind is serving. But where did this originate from? There's history behind it which seems to be twisted by those who serve the message. There was much more to it as they sell it today. It is important for all mankind to see there's something bigger going on. In stead of looking in the past, look for the future. Where are we heading to? Why would you even want to connect with an invisible source while there are so many wonderful creatures and places to explore in this world? Is the Iphone 6 really that more interesting then observing our nature? It looks like the homo sapiens sapiens of 2015 isn't able to explore nature without an Iphone 6, by matter of saying. Is a connection with god more important then a good connection with your neigbours? This god may disturb the peace with my neighbours and we might lose track of our priorities.
I feel connected with the universe all the time, but shouldn’t we connect to our inner universe to get the full experience of the outer universe? Should we even look for stars at this present time?
We understand these natural laws and abuse them into technologies that kills our fellow brother/sister. We can construct our societies in harmony with our fellow neighbours but we do not even bother. We don't even ask politicians to do so. Atheïsts, agnosts, creationists, what is a name, gravity pulls us down the same way.
Don’t want to sound like a grumpy dwarf, but it’s a matter that’s been chewing in my head.
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#19
Before we can answer the question: is the universe intelligent. We must find a definition of the concept intelligence.
Is intelligence something only animals have? Do you need a meat brain to have intelligence?

What is the difference between instinct and intelligence?
what has the free will to do with intelligence?
Do you need to have free will to have intelligence?

Now when we talk about cells the question that fascinates me is:
How does a cell know it is a certain type of cell? For example how does a hair cell know it is a hair cell and not a brain cell? Intelligence? Instinct?
Is it encoded in the DNA?
How does it know it is encoded? How does it read this code? Is it just like a robot without free will that is just following it, s orders?

And what about insticts? What is instinct? Do you have a diffination of instinct?
Do humans have instincts?

Do i think the universe is intelligent like humans and animals are? (Let, s call it meat brain intelligence)
Ofcourse i do not believe this. Smile
Do i believe the universe is a dumb or stupid (not intelligent) place ruled by (natural) laws, laws that makes the awakening of intelligence possible?
I do not know?

I do not claim to have any answers.
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#20
Intelligence/intelligent is a word with several definitions. We must indeed put the word in the right context first.

Imho: to address the universe as intelligent, would be the same like saying books are able to read. However, I do not have the answers on this matter myself. But I have been puzzeling this matter as long as I can remember. I am speaking from my logic sense of view.

To me it would be more reasonable to say complex cells are intelligent. But then again, which context are we putting intelligent in?

I woud not compare complex cells as concisouss beings, rather as a co operating impulses projecting you or any other organism. Do they act on instinct or intelligence and how would we distinguish those two? Well they do what their duplicator was doing before. I rather say they act on impuls but words are a tricky thing, how far off is impuls, instinct, intelligence from eachother? Can one of them exist without the other? Can you have an instinct without intelligence? I think no. Would there be impulses without an intelligence? I don't know.

How does ones instinct trigger an impuls that rapidly? We can go on like this forever, and I think it is for the sake of the argument we address this as simple as possible.

Did you know that moving your hand happens before you were able to think about it? Where do we put free will in this matter?

Yes we have instinct. We have for instance a survival instinct, but some people have lost so much will they overcome that instinct and deliberaty kill themself. A mother instinct is also proven "wrong" and people burning themself have shown us there are exceptions. What kind of impulses arose to trigger an organism into something different then what it should be doing out of instinct? That's an interesting question with a lot of psychology behind I lack. Bicameral mind of Julian Jaynes talks about this in chapter "Of prophets and posession." What is free will compared to a schizophrenic and a christian? Or a schizophrenic christian?

Without considering free will, what is our birhtright? I have been trying to address our instinct in another topic... But very little respond. The question was: If I ask you what is our instinct, what would you answer? And when I ask you, what is our birthright... what would that be in your oppinion?

When they say how big the universe is, does one never ask: compared to what? This universe might be a grain in a huge sac stocked in a huge warehouse located on another earth somewhere in a different universe. Have you heard about the universe of Giordano Bruno?
I have always felt a very strong connection with his theory... the poor man got killed by other ideologies for speaking his mind.

I don't think anybody has answers on matters like this... just look how they still debate on how evolutions works. But after a while people reach a consensus which is looked at in the future as a myth lol. Something like that I believe.
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#21
I think life was born intelligent.

From bacteria and plants to mammals and birds , all species are intelligent.

Intelligence means divide the body from ambient, control the body, and understand something of the laws of universe and act to improve the survival odds.

But if life is intelligent and if it comes from universe, why cannot universe have superior awareness ?

SFME. Smile
Tic, tic, tic...
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#22
Humans consider themselves intelligent compared to animals and plants. They can only compared themselves with what they see around them. When we talk about human intelligent there does not seem to be a more higher intelligence around to compare. We might say that out meat brain is most developed mear brain in the animal kingdom.

So when we look at intelligence that way, it is pure brain size. The bigger the brain the brighter the intellligence.
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#23
our brain is a well evolved product...
But what is our body compared to a hornets body?
What is our ability of speaking compared to sonar with Dolphins?
What is our ability to orientate compared to birds flying the magnetic field?
We know jack shit about these species, we think we do... but have you ever really observed an ant? a hornet? a dolphin?
You are only smart when you use your abilities to its best.
Which we don't Smile (general)
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#24
( Guy, I saw this post, checking out what was up in here and trying to talk a little, like... Making a first post after registering. I saw this thread and was like "owh... Yeah." Took a machinegun on the rack, put on black glasses and went in with an explosion behind.

So first thing first: hello.)

First, you have to consider that intelligence is nothing. It doesn't exist at all if you do not consider it from a human perspective since it's a concept invented (and not even well defined) by humans.
We barely know what intelligence is (we don't, actually, we're still talking about it) and if we apply it the way Rickster said

Citation :[SIZE=3]
Intelligence: it’s not that complicated: the ability to posess and apply knowledge.
[/SIZE]


It's making things simpler but lead us to ask ourselves: how do we know when something posess knowledge ?
Can we say a computer posesses knowledge ? It contains datas for sure, but it applies it following a simple (well. Kinda simple) pattern. You can obviously say the same thing for humans at another level of complexity but then there's the Consciousness Issue.

Finarfin, that guy said:
Citation :We may think of humans as intelligent or conscious and some might say humans have more consciousness or are more intelligent then other beings.


I think you can't split intelligent and consciousness. If you take the root of the word "Intelligence" you find the latin "Intelligere", which means "to understand" so if we admit intelligence has a non subjective meaning, we gotta say it's not only a computer work of APPLYING pre-introduced datas (and by the way a process of which the consequences can be seen) and that this work of appliance of the datas - the informations, actually- is only a consequence of the intelligent condition which is based on one thing:

understanding or thinking about understanding what is going on. Even a will of understanding can be that because it demonstrate that you have the capacity to conceptualize ideas that are not designed to produce a concrete effect on reality.
Some wise guy said that what makes human intelligence superior (or at least particular) is the ability to use abstract ideas. (the perfect example to demonstrate that is the concept of TIME as a dimension and not as a suite of causes and consequences which lead humans to picture time travel and even to approach it theoretically. Boom, your move, dolphins.)

So, Intelligence.
Is the Universe intelligent ?

It's a really religious debate, actually. Because if it is, it means there's a consciouness out there. Or IN THERE actually.
Jung made up a theory about conscious creating conscious by the link. Basically, the point was: if there was as much humans in a precisely designed space as there are neurons in a brains (the space was earth but I think we could calculate a more accurate thing), a superior conscience could be imaginable. The equivalent of the human mind for the neurons, using humans as neurons. That's to say not as individual calculator (which we are right now) but as a relay for ideas which would travel from humaneurons to humaneurons and form a giant thought.
We already do that under the form of debates. We've got the power of calculation but not the processor. That's the missing point: GOd. If we try to imagine a being called God as the one thinking the giant thoughts, the idea of universe being intelligence begins to make sense.




But the universe as we see it. As current humans see it, is theoretically nothing but a place. A place WE have to fill with our intelligences, and create a brighter one which will create even brighter ones after. THAT is evolution.

And

Citation :You are only smart when you use your abilities to its best.
Which we don't (general)


Man, we do. We just don't always use it the right way. Say you've got a gun and shoot all the bullets in the air. You've used it at it's best and still that was useless. (or you did it for the beauty and that was art but it's another story)
"The steps I took after I left her to the vultures, my aimless wandering, dying with sadness at the edge of the
platform. Empty and saturated with disenbodied voices, empty and saturated, endlessly, empty,
over three thousand miles across the frozen vastness forever sliced and crushed by the wind
which has a so special manner of marking the limits of my path,
these steps, I only owed them to myself."
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#25
In war you can take out an entire squad with one bullet or you can shoot entire clips revealing your position.

What I meant was, what is our ability? What can we use but why are we using it for today?
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#26
I do not think evolution is the creation of ever more brighter intelligence. If you use the word create to discribe evolution you will confuse a lot of people.

Evolution (in the biological sense) is not creating more brighter intelligence. Evolution is not getting more intelligent or getting stronger.
Evolution is the adeptation to the environment.
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#27
Jawn writes that Jung made up a theory about conscious creating conscious by the link.
I am not a stranger to the work or Carl Jung. I have read a lot his books. However i do not know what theory Jawn is writing about?
Where did Jung write about this theory? Source please?

Jung wrote about the collective unconsious. But the collective unconsious has nothing to do with creating conscious by link.
So what theory are we talking about here?
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#28
We are yet a low level of understanding collective consciousness and collective intelligence. Is the universe alive? might be a better questions, since intelligence might take forms that human beings don't comprehend.
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#29
^^^true say

wee monkeys like ourselves (im assuming no one has bought e-bay nano transplants yet) cannot hope to fully understand such concepts... though thinking about them is useful for expanding awareness and wider ranges of thought, the hope of grasping this concept would b the same as the hope of grasping the sun
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#30
theflu a écrit :We are yet a low level of understanding collective consciousness and collective intelligence. Is the universe alive? might be a better questions, since intelligence might take forms that human beings don't comprehend.


I agree.
But what is alive?

We are alive and we are part of the universe.
The universe might be one being and we might be part of this one being.
The universe may or may not be alive.
Do you think that the universe is..... I mean the universe may not be alive, but the universe may be a being?
Or something... :lol:
it may be something we can not comprehend.
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