what's happened to Michael Hoffman from egodeath?

[maxfreakout]

ego death is the most INTENSE and PROFOUND experience the human mind can undergo, it's a 'mystical orgasm', but it doesnt have to have anyhting to do with Hoffman's theory, i experienced it long before i understood the theory, but the theory makes it transparent exactly how it works and what happens

 

[Eldritch]

ego death is the most INTENSE and PROFOUND experience the human mind can undergo, it's a 'mystical orgasm', but it doesnt have to have anyhting to do with Hoffman's theory, i experienced it long before i understood the theory, but the theory makes it transparent exactly how it works and what happens

So can you talk more about what you experience in "egodeath" itself? What happens?

I can't find anything on Hoffman's site except a lot of jargony techno language talking about everything but.

 

[Sticki]

Theory, Over Experience???

Are you serious mate?

Solipsism is a belief system created by selfish people to explain the lack of guilt or empathy they feel, Maybe it also falls in to the category of a destructive demonic archetype when the individual contemplates his own life?

Solispsism isnt any kind of 'belief system', it is one simple idea, that other people's minds dont exist

Believing this idea follows very naturally from adopting a philosophical 'hyper-reflexive' view of reality, because whereas your own mental contents are presented directly to consciousness, other people's mental contents are forever hidden from you, you can only 'assume' that they exist, you could never know that they exist (but you can know that your own mind exists because you experience it directly)

It is perfectly possible to feel empathy, whilst at the same time being a solipsist, just as you can feel sad watching a sad movie even though you *know* that it is just a movie

Thats one simple idea, is it?

Here's a complex psychological condition to counter balance it, Narcissistic personality disorder.

Max, Theory Or Experience?

Ever experienced the loss of a family member or friend thru Suicide?

Solipsism does lack empathy becuase you dont consider other beings feelings, Surely a true solipsist wouldnt feel pain at the event of some ones death becuase it is all a by product of themselves. The person, The love, The life, The death, All a by product of the ego?

Sounds too far fetched to me

P.S. It wouldnt suprise me if Micheal Hoffman pushed his family and friends away in his quest for "truth", Isolating himself from the real world and had a nervous breakdown when all he thought, theorized and wrote about was dis-proven by a later trip. Recognizing how selfish he had become with his solipsistic view Or maybe he decided he would stop the worlds suffering too??? :butthead:

 

[magickmumu]

the religious experience is subjective and is not the same as the ego death experience.
The ego death experience and the traditional religious experience are two distinct experiences
I see little value in comparing them.

 

[maxfreakout]

Thats one simple idea, is it?

Solipsism is one totally simple idea, other minds don't exist except as indirect representations, i see my own mental contents, but i dont see other people's, that is solipsism

Here's a complex psychological condition to counter balance it, Narcissistic personality disorder.

that's an arbitrary psychiatric label and has no connection with ontic solipsism

Solipsism does lack empathy becuase you dont consider other beings feelings

If other people's feelings dont exist, then there is nothinig to 'consider', as i already explained with the sad movie example, it is easily possible to experience empathy without actually believing in the feelings of those who you feel empathy for

P.S. It wouldnt suprise me if Micheal Hoffman pushed his family and friends away in his quest for "truth", Isolating himself from the real world and had a nervous breakdown when all he thought, theorized and wrote about was dis-proven by a later trip. Recognizing how selfish he had become with his solipsistic view Or maybe he decided he would stop the worlds suffering too??? :butthead:

Ego death theory is not based on Hoffman's own experiences, it is based on what everybody (throughout history) experiences when they take entheogens - psychological transformation

He doesnt have a 'solipsistic view' (that's why he writes several websites for other people to read), the point about solipsism is that it is something that can be felt in the psychedelic experience when mental contents are revealed to be purely representational (this is the precise meaning of the word 'psychedelic')

 

[maxfreakout]

the religious experience is subjective

ALL experience is subjective! ie the term 'objective experience' is a blatant self-contradiction, experiences are private, mental phenomena

and is not the same as the ego death experience.
The ego death experience and the traditional religious experience are two distinct experiences
I see little value in comparing them.

there is not really such a thing as 'the religious experience' (implying only one experience), because religious experiencing encompasses a range of possible experiences which includes ego death and ego transcendence. Generally speaking, religious/mystical/psychedelic (these terms are roughly equivalent to each other) experiences result from the loosening of cognitive associations, which leads to systemic mental restructuring

Ego death and subsequent transcendence is the peak religious experience, ie the most profound and intense, mindblowing and transformative kind of experience

 

[maxfreakout]

So can you talk more about what you experience in "egodeath" itself? What happens?

Very basically/generally, the subject feels as if everything that he was familiar with has come to an end, the world has finished, time has come to an end, everything dramatically falls apart. The belief in reality is disproved resulting in sheer insanity

I can't find anything on Hoffman's site except a lot of jargony techno language talking about everything but.

the entire website is about this experience, in one way or another, the most lucid description of the experience is here:
http://www.egodeath.com/MysticClimax.htm

 

[zezt]

It is very brutal----the terminology.
You know Max, I found myself listening to the interview you did with Christian Rätsch. It was a really great interview, you asked some really great questions. I always know when I am into an interview when I look at the time not as in wondering when its gonna end, but concern that it MAY end lol

He was describing about how dualism is not the same as polarity, and how the latter is a more intelligent, loving embodied understandiong of dynamic relations, and he said that whereever matter is so is mind, and it takes a mother and father to conceive. And you asked if he was into Hegel and his thesis and anti thesis and synthesis, and i LOVED it when he cooly replied, 'but that's not PRACTICAL--is too abstract'...lol, which it is. An that is exactly what I feel about how Hoffman tries to explain the Mystery using such mechanical abstract terminology whilst also PRESUMING we AND the Mystery functions like a computer

He advises we dont look to "'standard model' humans" when seeking religious experience but to aliens and robots:

"Thinking about humans instantly leads back into ruts of thinking. When seeking religious experiencing, instead, we should think about robots and aliens, more intelligent than the standard-mode human."

Like Stanislaw Lem's godly-brilliant computers, since we can only think of (standard-mode) humans as being too stupid and dull to understand their own nature, we should instead jump out of these mental limitations by thinking in terms of what the android would know and what the advanced alien would know that we don't know -- something quite unexpected and truly surprising about religious knowledge."

There is no mention of LOVE!! Anywhere! Rather putting down people he considers lower than himself post his 'ego'-death' or in seek of it, and his major cum..? Does that include putting down his mum, his dad, his brother, sister, neighbour, ...friend. his children...?

In Near Death Experiences, for example, you dont hear this kind of talk. That one must dismiss 'dull people'--No, you are faced with yourself deeply. Seeing how your behaviour with others could have meant you did not consider their feelings at all, and you may even feel like them--become them, and so you know how they feel. That is deep empathy, and love, and I have heard this also talked about in other psychedelic experiences, also Grof mentions it a lot from his data on others' experiences, as have other consciousness researchers--where the person can actually become the abuser, and/or others s/he as hurt, etc etc, and these deep experiential lessons profoundly change how you feel about yourself and others.

Some people have had such NDEs and come back, and have been inspired to give up high-powered jobs and begin working in a hospice, etc, and feel far better for it. They apparently dont see people in general as "standard models" as you would talk about a machine!

 

[maxfreakout]

It is very brutal----the terminology.

I agree but this is not a bad thing, i wouldnt use the word 'brutal' as it has negative connotations, so i would rather say that the theory and its terminology are 'explicit', 'concise', 'direct', 'unambiguous' etc.

You know Max, I found myself listening to the interview you did with Christian Rätsch. It was a really great interview, you asked some really great questions. I always know when I am into an interview when I look at the time not as in wondering when its gonna end, but concern that it MAY end lol

that is one of my favourite episodes also 8)

that is exactly what I feel about how Hoffman tries to explain the Mystery

Hoffman doesn't try to 'explain the mystery' (whatever 'the mystery' is), he explains and describes the experience of intense control-loss in the psychedelic state of consciousness

using such mechanical abstract terminology

there is nothing 'abstract' about it, it is the terminology of cognitive phenomenology, ie human subjects directly experiencing their own mental contents, it is the terminology of subjective experience which is arguably the least abstract terminology you could possibly use to explain anything. The most real thing, is your own subjective experiencing

whilst also PRESUMING we AND the Mystery functions like a computer

He makes no such presumption, as i explained earlier the ONLY axiom of ego death theory, is the reality of the psychedelic experience

he doesnt 'presume' that the mind functions like a computer, instead he uses the terminology of computational theory of mind because that is the predominant (in fact the ONLY) theory of modern psychology and philosophy about the nature of mental functioning

He advises we dont look to "'standard model' humans" when seeking religious experience but to aliens and robots:

Yes the crucial thing to understand about that isnt so much that it is 'aliens and robots' but rather HIGHER INTELLIGENCE, humans thinking about human intelliegence is circular thinking (ie 'rutted') and leads to inescapable thought-loops, whereas humans thinking about levels of intelligence that entirely transcend our own mental capacty (super-intelligent aliens and computers) opens up the possibility of ego-transcendence, jumping outside of the entire system of human cognition (ie jumping out of the dreaded feedback loop)

I found that part particularly resonant with my own experience because the first time i ever had a 'transformative' psychedelic experience happened when i took mushrooms and watched the movie 'Predator', because that is precisely the subject-matter of that movie, the alien possesses a radically higher level of intelligence than the humans

There is no mention of LOVE!! Anywhere!

The theory does mention love (many times) insofar as it applies to psychedelic experiencing, divine compassion/mercy/forgiveness is a crucial aspect of ego-transcendence

Rather putting down people he considers lower than himself post his 'ego'-death' or in seek of it, and his major cum..? Does that include putting down his mum, his dad, his brother, sister, neighbour, ...friend. his children...?

this ^ has no connection whatsoever with anything Hoffman has written, he doesnt put anyone down, and he doesnt ever talk about his own experiences

In Near Death Experiences, for example

Psychedelic ego death IS a type of near-death experience, they are identical in all respects except how they are caused (ego death is caused by entheogens, NDEs are caused by car crashes etc etc)

you dont hear this kind of talk. That one must dismiss 'dull people'--

You dont hear that kind of talk in ego death theory either, so again this ^ has no connection whatsoever with Hoffman's theory, you are merely picking non-existent holes in non-existent parts of the theory. Ego death has nothing to do with 'dismissing' anybody

No, you are faced with yourself deeply

Absolutely, that is just as true of NDEs as it is true of psychedelic ego death. It directly follows from the meaning of the word 'psychedelic', when you are confronted with the manifestation your own mind, perceiving mental contents as explicitly representational (as opposed to being literally real), you are radically isolated within yourself

Seeing how your behaviour with others could have meant you did not consider their feelings at all, and you may even feel like them--become them, and so you know how they feel. That is deep empathy, and love, and I have heard this also talked about in other psychedelic experiences, also Grof mentions it a lot from his data on others' experiences, as have other consciousness researchers--where the person can actually become the abuser, and/or others s/he as hurt, etc etc, and these deep experiential lessons profoundly change how you feel about yourself and others.

Yes psychedelic experiences (and other traumatic and life-changing experiences) are profoundly transformative, they change every aspect of the way you think about life, the world, other people etc etc, no stone is left unturned after full psychological transformation

Some people have had such NDEs and come back, and have been inspired to give up high-powered jobs and begin working in a hospice, etc, and feel far better for it.

This is not a characteristic feature of NDEs though, many people have NDEs or ego death or whatever and DON'T go and work in a hospice. The fundamental level at which the transformation occurs is purely psychological, and this is a separate thing from transformations in daily conduct of life

They apparently dont see people in general as "standard models" as you would talk about a machine!

you have misunderstood what Hoffman's reference to standard models is all about, it is a reference to levels of intelligence, humans operate on a certain level of intelligence, with certain characteristic limitations (for example our inability to grasp the concept of infinity), but you can imagine other beings such as gods, computers, aliens etc that operate on a higher level than humans. This kind of imagining, combined with the psychedelic state of consciousness, can lead to ego death and transcendence. Douglas Hofstadter's books are very informative for understanding these kinds of issues

 

[zezt]

No I dont think I misunderstand. I understand what I am understanding, though that might seem like mis-understanding to you.
Hoffman has no right to judge other peoples intelligence like he does. And then have the nerve to preach 'EGO' death'--as though he is privy to a state of intelligence that is superior to many other people. That IS ego! That is being ego-tistical: "e·go·tist (g-tst, g-)
n.
1. A conceited, boastful person." So see the irony. Obviously whatever it is he is sellin dont work!

 

[maxfreakout]

No I dont think I misunderstand. I understand what I am understanding, though that might seem like mis-understanding to you.

You seemed to think that the comment about robots and aliens was some kind of judgement about people, when it wasnt, and that is a misunderstanding. It is a comment about levels of intelligence and thought-loops it has nothing whatsoever to do with judging other people. He doesnt deny being a human being himself, so he is included in the lower level of intelligence (ie he isnt claimimng to be a computer or an alien)

Hoffman has no right to judge other peoples intelligence like he does.

He doesnt ever judge "other people's" intelligence that is just your misunderstanding of what he said, all he does is just theorize about deep religious experiencing. He judges human intelligence in general as being at a lower level than that of (hypothetical) super-computers and aliens, but since he himself is a human being he is included in this category of limited human intelligence, so it is wrong to say that this is a judgement about 'other people's intelligence', because it is equally a judgement about his own intelligence

And then have the nerve to preach 'EGO' death'

He doesnt 'preach' ego death (that wouldnt make any sense, you cant 'preach' an experience), he theorises about it

--as though he is privy to a state of intelligence that is superior to many other people.

He is just like all of us here, he knows about psychedelic experiencing which most people dont. That isnt a 'state of intelligence', it's a state of consciousness. We are all (i mean here at psychonaut.com) in some sense 'superior' to the majority of people, because we know something about the transcendental potential of the human mind that most people have no idea about, but this isnt really about our intelligence, it's about what experiences we've had. As Mckenna observed: "there are 2 types of people, psychedelic and clueless" :lol:

That IS ego!

Not in the sense of 'ego' as in 'ego death', in that sense ego means just the same as 'self' or 'person'

That is being ego-tistical: "e·go·tist (g-tst, g-)
n.
1. A conceited, boastful person." So see the irony. Obviously whatever it is he is sellin dont work!

He isnt selling anything, he offers this information for free, he is just talking about transformative religious experiencing, he never boasts about anything, so there is no 'irony'

i think the reason you find it hard to understand is because you are focusing on Mike Hoffman the person, instead of focusing on the theory and the subject matter of the theory, which has nothing to do with him as an individual person, the religious experience is something that any human being can experience by taking drugs

ie forget about the person, focus on the theory

 

[zezt]

it takes a person to create a theory. He as a person has formulated his theory which I am finding fault with.

 

[maxfreakout]

it takes a person to create a theory. He as a person has formulated his theory which I am finding fault with.

you arent finding any real, genuine faults with the theory, as i said before you are poking non-existent holes in non-existent parts of the theory just for the sake of it (so it seems), you will never understand it if you insist on doing that. And it makes no sense to find a fault with the person because you havent met him and have no reason to dislike him as a person.

It would be absurd to judge Einstein's personality on the basis of some arbitrary misunderstanding of relativity theory

 

[zezt]

who knows, maybe i am not understanding. Thats why I ask questions. Asking questions is a good way not to get caught up in a cult! And I hope we agree that that can happen at least, right...?

you said above: "Yes the theory is based very heavily on one particular essay from Watts called something like 'zen and self control' from the book 'this is it', Hoffman holds that one essay on very high regard. Watts says in that paper that 'self-control' is paradoxically impossible, like walking along by picking up each foot with your hands and moving it, or making a car move forwards by sitting inside and pushing the dashboard. The 'self-controller' entity is extraneous, unnecessary and ultimately impossible

Ego death theory is based around that central insight of Watt's, the ego defined as the 'self-controlling homunculus' which sits inside the head and steers the person's thoughts and actions, is a logical paradox. In the ego death experience the paradoxical nature of ego becomes intensely problematic, resulting in schizophrenic disintegration and the permanent cessation of ego-identification"

So has that happened for Michael? Has that happened for you? I am trying to understand what that actually means

 

[maxfreakout]

who knows, maybe i am not understanding. Thats why I ask questions. Asking questions is a good way not to get caught up in a cult! And I hope we agree that that can happen at least, right...?

that can certainly happen to highly suggestible (ie gullible) people

So has that happened for Michael? Has that happened for you? I am trying to understand what that actually means

I assume it has happened to him but i have no idea because he doesnt talk about his own experiences in that way, it has happened to me some years ago. But the theory is a general model of what happens in the ego death experience, and that is an experience which happens to psychonauts fairly typically, it happens when you trip too hard and end up with a transformed psychology

what that means in a concrete, practical sense, is that the psychedelic experience profoundly changed the way I think about the core concepts of self, world, time and change. The essence of the change is that I now acknowledge (and humbly bow my head before) the ontological primacy of the transcendental level of reality which is behind/beyond everyday appearances (people and objects)

do you see the connection between psychedelic drugs and mental health?

 

[zezt]

who knows, maybe i am not understanding. Thats why I ask questions. Asking questions is a good way not to get caught up in a cult! And I hope we agree that that can happen at least, right...?

that can certainly happen to highly suggestible (ie gullible) people

So has that happened for Michael? Has that happened for you? I am trying to understand what that actually means

I assume it has happened to him but i have no idea because he doesnt talk about his own experiences in that way, it has happened to me some years ago. But the theory is a general model of what happens in the ego death experience, and that is an experience which happens to psychonauts fairly typically, it happens when you trip too hard and end up with a transformed psychology

what that means in a concrete, practical sense, is that the psychedelic experience profoundly changed the way I think about the core concepts of self, world, time and change. The essence of the change is that I now acknowledge (and humbly bow my head before) the ontological primacy of the transcendental level of reality which is behind/beyond everyday appearances (people and objects)

do you see the connection between psychedelic drugs and mental health?

I can't answer directly because I am not sure how you mean?

This is what I mean though: I think that the suppression of entheogenic experience is obviously a huge essential cause of mental dis-ease, and I do not mean 'disease' as the proponents of the mental illness model mean. I more mean that suppressing entheogenic experience, and its inspiration for our deep sense of interelation with nature and the universe and our bodies and feelings and ecstasy is serious abuse against us and against nature

Is this what you mean?

 

[maxfreakout]

I can't answer directly because I am not sure how you mean?

This is what I mean though: I think that the suppression of entheogenic experience is obviously a huge essential cause of mental dis-ease, and I do not mean 'disease' as the proponents of the mental illness model mean. I more mean that suppressing entheogenic experience, and its inspiration for our deep sense of interelation with nature and the universe and our bodies and feelings and ecstasy is serious abuse against us and against nature

Is this what you mean?

No that's not what i meant, im not talking about suppressing entheogens, im talking about tripping, it is a kind of temporary psychosis, that's why before the word 'psychedelic' was coined, psychiatrists were calling LSD 'psychotomimetic'.

 

[zezt]

I can't answer directly because I am not sure how you mean?

This is what I mean though: I think that the suppression of entheogenic experience is obviously a huge essential cause of mental dis-ease, and I do not mean 'disease' as the proponents of the mental illness model mean. I more mean that suppressing entheogenic experience, and its inspiration for our deep sense of interelation with nature and the universe and our bodies and feelings and ecstasy is serious abuse against us and against nature

Is this what you mean?

No that's not what i meant, im not talking about suppressing entheogens, im talking about tripping, it is a kind of temporary psychosis, that's why before the word 'psychedelic' was coined, psychiatrists were calling LSD 'psychotomimetic'.

well thee whole idea from the mental health movment about what 'psychosis' IS is confused, so calling psychedelics a psychomimmetic is double confused. So whats your point?

 

[BrainEater]

when you think, you only think that you think. and when you think about thinking, you only think that you think that you think. and.... :lol:

 

[maxfreakout]

well thee whole idea from the mental health movment about what 'psychosis' IS is confused, so calling psychedelics a psychomimmetic is double confused. So whats your point?

My point was just to make the connection between tripping and psychosis. In the psychiatric literature 'psychosis' means disconnection from reality, delusory beliefs and hallucinations. Ego death theory gives an ultra-clear definition of precisely what psychosis is 'loosened cognitive associations'

when you trip, you go psychotic to some extent but it is temporary, when you are schizophrenic the same thing happens but it is not temporary