The Psychedelic Community and Cultural Taboos

[VapourTrail]

Although not so much here (although I did post a questionnaire) I have been asking questions about statements people have made.

I have had replies such as "You don't want to know about that" and "There are too many questions"([so much so that the person did not answer even 1).

Is there any questions that cannot be asked?

What are the cultural taboos of the psychedelic community?

 

[IJesusChrist]

You mean... what would we not answer? On here?

I probably wouldn't want to answer ... well really I think most people on here answer any question that isn't going to give his/her social security number away...

There are a few questions that have been asked to me about reliving some depressive moments that I cared not to go into - but I've actually answered them quite well lately...

What exactly are you studying?

 

[VapourTrail]

In a discussion about the psychedelic experience and what has been learnt because of it, I was receiving very poetic replies.

I said the words being used did not have well defined meanings and as such felt they said waaaaaay more about the person doing the reading than the person writing.

This meant that I did not feel, because we did not agree on the meaning of the words, that anything was being communicated effectively. I felt the message I was getting was a result of my own thoughts and not theirs.

Part of the actual reply:

I'm not sure that I think it is necessary to talk about these kind of things with everyone, in a common language

Even upon explanation that I did not want them to shout it in the streets, it still seemed that he felt talking to me in a way that conveyed meaning accurately demeaned him.

He used the word "censorship".

 

[Forkbender]

This meant that I did not feel, because we did not agree on the meaning of the words, that anything was being communicated effectively. I felt the message I was getting was a result of my own thoughts and not theirs.

I don't think miscommunication counts as (part of) a cultural taboo. You could also ask to what extent this happens during communication with other people as well.

I think a lot of the psychedelic state of mind evades language/definition, i.e. cannot be explained using words or even pictures. One can try, but is doomed to fail. If you read an attempt, you will necessarily have to fill in some of the blanks that cannot be expressed. So I guess you are right that the message you get is to a large degree the result of your own thoughts.

The question is: does it matter?

 

[VapourTrail]

I don't think miscommunication counts as (part of) a cultural taboo. You could also ask to what extent this happens during communication with other people as well.

I think a lot of the psychedelic state of mind evades language/definition, i.e. cannot be explained using words or even pictures. One can try, but is doomed to fail. If you read an attempt, you will necessarily have to fill in some of the blanks that cannot be expressed. So I guess you are right that the message you get is to a large degree the result of your own thoughts.

The question is: does it matter?

I never said that miscommunication counts as a cultural taboo.

What I said is that when a statement that was basically poetry and loose language - nothing defined, when I asked what was meant my asking was treated as a taboo.

Take the following example.

It means being able to tune the ego level of awareness to the transpersonal level of basic cellular awareness, and replicate that more universal perspective in a local brain. Every cell in our bodies is a local projection of a living space-time structure which extends seamlessly back to the first micro-organisms and forwards to the boundary we call "death" (Unless you have kids). The electro-chemical processes of our brains piggyback on this more basic level of process and generate the interesting phenomenon of individuality, which seems to function best when tinted with awareness of the bigger picture.

Although the original author got back to me and was VERY helpful when I asked questions, a lot of people said that it was not right to ask what any part of this meant, I was to treat it as a piece of poetry and just enjoy it, says one person.

A few people chimed in to say this was the ultimate reality, the ultimate truth. They also sent me private messages to say I shouldn't ask follow up questions about the meaning of the words used and how every cell can be connected, etc, etc. The same people! How can it be ultimate truth if I cannot ask about it?

Surely that smacks of Dogma?

My question is - why have some people grown to dislike questions? Why have they had their 10 minutes with salvia, their 10 hours with LSD and decided, that's it, everyone else must stop there?

There have been a few people saying I shouldn't question other things too.

It's just odd that suddenly everyone has to just believe everything that someone on drugs said and no questions can be asked. I bring my question here because overall, this forum tends to have more mature members than others.

 

[ophiuchus]

because one CANNOT explain anything objectively about a subjective experience. so it's pointless to ask questions like that. it's all about interpretation anyways. it's not that they don't want to answer, it's just that an answer in the format you request, simply cannot be given. it's like asking what the color purple looks like. metaphors are the BEST approximation you will ever get, and you should be glad that this fellow can actually write. i get the feeling that you've never been there, even though i don't know the previous conversation in which this came up.

"Is there any questions that cannot be asked?"

what was your trip like? or any variation of.. all you will get are approximations. i think his description paints a decent enough picture. what dont you get?

 

[BrainEater]

interesting.... i think it's a matter of ignorance...

the people you describe in your last post seemed to be so convinced of the truth that they want their words to hold, that they even want to defend the realm in which they manifested "their truth" ??? (=language) but in another way by doing that they take away a possible responsability they maybe should take for the possible truth presented so i kind of like the attitude.


but why equate the ultimate reality with the ultimate truth??? then first define what would be the differences of a ultimate reality and just a normal reality... ??? and what would a so called ultimate reality have to do with all the normal realities??? and what would any truth have to do with the ultimate truth, except perhaps that it possibly wasn't true or was true?


peace :weedman:

 

[Forkbender]

why have some people grown to dislike questions?

I don't know. Perhaps they take themselves too seriously?

 

[VapourTrail]

How about this one?

sometimes the code is used to prevent slack-jawed puppets from raping the system, as it were. its not always in the best interest of everyone to spread every piece of information around.

A few more people since last I posted saying that they prefer some people remain in ignorance.

I think I'm with you Braineater - it is like they want it to be true so much they will not allow it to be questioned just in case it falls apart.

I do not like the idea that someone could discover the ultimate truth and then not share.

Not only should the truth set you free, but the truth should be free full stop!

 

[VapourTrail]

why have some people grown to dislike questions?

I don't know. Perhaps they take themselves too seriously?

Possibly! Don't we all a little?

adrianhaffner - I am not just talking about trips people have had, just ideas in general, not necessarily those driven by psychedelics. It is just the people I reference would be considered part of the psychedelic community.

I think I'm just wondering, how far spread is this attitude?

Do people here take offence at my asking?

If you told me every living cell that ever existed is connected, literally and not just metaphorically, would you take offence to me asking about the nature of the connection? I would assume if you told any scientist the same thing they would seek to either prove or disprove the theory. They would build instruments that would be able to trace those connections, given enough time. Maybe they will.

 

[Forkbender]

I guess we all do.

I do not like the idea that someone could discover the ultimate truth and then not share.

But by the same token, you can tell people the truth a million times, but if they don't want to hear it they won't.

 

[BrainEater]

i'd say it's all connected thru NOTHING.

 

[VapourTrail]

I guess we all do.

I do not like the idea that someone could discover the ultimate truth and then not share.

But by the same token, you can tell people the truth a million times, but if they don't want to hear it they won't.

Yes, but I would not take away their right to be wilfully ignorant. That could do some people a lot of mental damage!

By the same token, if a school kid asked about Pythagoras and a teacher replied that it wasn't something his kind ought to know, I'd be outraged.

I think ignorance for those who want it is fine.

Never should knowledge be withheld from those who seek it. Except maybe credit card numbers, as the above post, but you know what I mean!

I think our greatest achievement so far is that potentially, from this point on, there will be enough digital storage so that we never lose any piece of knowledge we really want to keep.

The speed and availability and education (although not in every country yet) is miles beyond what it has been and this is a good thing.

I do not like the idea that we should lie about the true nature of existence to those people who truly want to know it.

 

[Forkbender]

how far spread is this attitude?

I think everyone has his/her blind spots. That's not a bad thing, it's an opportunity. Some people don't want to learn and stay away from these blind spots, because it hurts coming near.

Bliss is right in the center of the pain. You need to ask the hard questions and answer them, if not, you are just getting farther from the truth.

We don't need yes men agreeing with each other all the time without thinking about their assumptions, because that's what has gotten us into the problem in the first place.

I think ignorance for those who want it is fine.

I don't think I agree. Some knowledge can prevent you from making mistakes, some knowledge can make you a healthier, happier human being. Choosing ignorance should be possible, but it isn't fine, it is ignorant.

 

[VapourTrail]

how far spread is this attitude?

I think everyone has his/her blind spots. That's not a bad thing, it's an opportunity. Some people don't want to learn and stay away from these blind spots, because it hurts coming near.

Bliss is right in the center of the pain. You need to ask the hard questions and answer them, if not, you are just getting farther from the truth.

We don't need yes men agreeing with each other all the time without thinking about their assumptions, because that's what has gotten us into the problem in the first place.

[quote:9trv1uzb]I think ignorance for those who want it is fine.

I don't think I agree. Some knowledge can prevent you from making mistakes, some knowledge can make you a healthier, happier human being. Choosing ignorance should be possible, but it isn't fine, it is ignorant.[/quote:9trv1uzb]

In an ideal world, everyone would be well informed.

I think what I really mean is that, although I would like to, I know that if I pressure them they will be further put off the idea of learning.

I would rather educate those who want the education and hope that the benefits of that education will show through to the people without it and they will want to join the ranks of people who know better!

 

[Forkbender]

I do not like the idea that we should lie about the true nature of existence to those people who truly want to know it.

I doubt this knowledge is something that can be transferred from one person to another by words alone.

I have had many eye opening experiences, both with psychedelics and without any mind altering substances, and I must say that a) they cannot be explained because they are too simple for words and b) I had to be open for the insight to come, i.e. I was willing to learn something or, more often, unlearn something.

I would rather educate those who want the education and hope that the benefits of that education will show through to the people without it and they will want to join the ranks of people who know better!

This sounds almost Platonic. Persuade people to educate themselves by just showing the results of the education. I think it is a good way to approach the subject.

I think noone in his right mind will choose ignorance, except out of fear/anger/etc. Make people feel good thinking about something they previously didn't want to hear is a huge first step.

 

[VapourTrail]

If it turns out that the real truth can only be experienced, there are other sub-forums here for just that purpose.

Isn't that what we are as Psychonauts? Proponents of the Hands On approach?

 

[Forkbender]

Well, I think you can provide the environment in which people feel safe to explore ideas or even negative emotions and ultimately something like truth. = you can enable others to experience truth.

 

[BrainEater]

maybe the question is: could GOD (allmighty creator of time and space etc etc) create a stone he/it/she would not be able to lift ???


peace :weedman:

 

[VapourTrail]

Well, I think you can provide the environment in which people feel safe to explore ideas or even negative emotions and ultimately something like truth. = you can enable others to experience truth.

I'm not sure I feel happy with the label "enabler". Haha.

It has negative cultural connotations that you are the reason someone is able to do something they shouldn't be doing.

That is what I am hoping for.

I do not wish to enable learning in the way that a teacher would - I cannot, I have nothing to teach.

Far from not having all the answers, I don't even have all the questions yet.

Even if I only get part way there - I want the people who come after me to be able to use that as a starting place and get that little bit further.

I do not want each cycle to begin anew because the people before them hid knowledge.

Saying that, hidden knowledge and lost knowledge is a fairly popular theme in movies and books. Maybe that is what generates the appeal?

I would hate to think that the next generation of physics students would have to rediscover Ohm's law before they could do the calculations.

The same is true of any knowledge. I do not think I will make it all the way there.

I think I will get part way to the truth and then die.

I will die happy knowing that the point I get to will be the starting point of the next generation. Isn't that why we have kids?