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Some discussion about American foreign policy...

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lol that's right we keep asking your opinions on a lot of points and you ignore us.
Pretty hypocritical to say we don't care what you think when we keep asking you and you don't give answers.

In fact, I think I found the problem: you actually DON'T think at all.

You're the only one seeing this as a bash-fest. What I see is some individuals trying to show you why you're wrong and you not listening and bringing evil stories to support your fucked up ideas, and then crying we don't listen.
 
Psychoid a dit:
lol that's right we keep asking your opinions on a lot of points and you ignore us.
Pretty hypocritical to say we don't care what you think when we keep asking you and you don't give answers.

In fact, I think I found the problem: you actually DON'T think at all.

You're the only one seeing this as a bash-fest. What I see is some individuals trying to show you why you're wrong and you not listening and bringing evil stories to support your fucked up ideas, and then crying we don't listen.

Some things don't warrant a reply.
 
^then don't.
 
'Psychedelic' means 'mind-expanding'. What is the term for narrow thought? You guys can't entertain an idea that is not in agreement with your own. How will you ever grow? Just bash the messenger. That's what is wrong with the world. I have attempted to debate civilly numerous times with no luck here.
 
EllisDee a dit:
You guys can't entertain an idea that is not in agreement with your own.

Are you saying we should just blindly accept them, without critical evaluation? That is what we are doing, right? Thinking about your idea and asking if what you say makes sense to us. Right now it doesn't, because people still have questions.
 
You almost sound sincere in your wanting to debate these things. But I have answered most of them already; I am not Republican, I'm Independent. But that doesn't matter. I keep getting bashed as a Bush lover. I have already stated that I think the best way would be a hybrid of capitalism and something else. But that doesn't matter either. This is actually an ego forum, getting over on the other by approach and method, rather than the subject at hand. One upsmanship by any means possible. You notice I haven't motherfucked anyone despite being done so myself. You wanna ask a question, shoot. Keep it simple, and let's not let ego's get in the way. I have nothing to hide, so I'll be honest.
 
I guess your statements about domination triggered the responses you had. It can come across very crude and cruel. But I have some honest questions:

What do you want to mix in with capitalism? Tell us more about your ideal situation.

How can you make sure people without capital are listened to? How do you prevent the rich exploiting the poor because they will have to take any job to survive?

How can an economic theory that is based both on scarcity and on continuous growth be the best possible way to deal with things? Doesn't the internal conflict result in bubbles and bursts throughout history, making people more eager about money instead of value?
 
About the Christianity and Capitalism thing, of which I still don't understand how you can combine those within one worldview.

Capitalism thrives on interest and scarcity. Interest, however is creating debt, enslaving people just as much as you think 'liberal ideologies' do. It makes people who owe money work harder than those lending it did in the first place. It is some sort of punishment from the top to the bottom. Combined with scarcity this creates hyperinflation, resulting in a complete system meltdown, because the value of a market doesn't change with the amount of dollars available and this latter amount grows and grows because people need to work off their interest-payments.

Jesus chased moneychangers from the temple, showing that earthly matters and his views don't mix. Making other people work harder than you is lazyness, which is actually promoted in capitalism.

If Christ wants you to 'dominate the earth in abundance', this means that there should be abundace, while Capitalism has only provided us with more versions of cheap rip-off, because money is more important than customer satisfaction, health and sanity.

Your thoughts?
 
I say, Forkbender deserves credit for being patient with you ellis.

I think all the things he says, without any of the patience he seems to have for your thoughts. I don't know, you say you're an independent, but MANY of your stated positions are conservative, so conservative that you, without seeming to be fully aware of it, are projecting exactly the opposite image of the 'independent' label you attempt to affix to your ideas.

Independent of tolerance....maybe...independent of a desire to change....maybe...

You act like everyone on this board wants to live in a fucking commune, and bring back the glory days of the USSR......

A thorough, critical evaluation of your statements reveal you to be pro-war,
anti-freedom, and pseudo-condescending.


I don't know what your purpose is here, but you're not being honest with any of us. You say one thing, and then you state the opposite.

You claim to dislike Bush, then you defend Palin and McCain.

There is something wrong with you.
 
Forkbender a dit:
About the Christianity and Capitalism thing, of which I still don't understand how you can combine those within one worldview.

Capitalism thrives on interest and scarcity. Interest, however is creating debt, enslaving people just as much as you think 'liberal ideologies' do. It makes people who owe money work harder than those lending it did in the first place. It is some sort of punishment from the top to the bottom. Combined with scarcity this creates hyperinflation, resulting in a complete system meltdown, because the value of a market doesn't change with the amount of dollars available and this latter amount grows and grows because people need to work off their interest-payments.

Jesus chased moneychangers from the temple, showing that earthly matters and his views don't mix. Making other people work harder than you is lazyness, which is actually promoted in capitalism.

If Christ wants you to 'dominate the earth in abundance', this means that there should be abundace, while Capitalism has only provided us with more versions of cheap rip-off, because money is more important than customer satisfaction, health and sanity.

Your thoughts?


My view of capitalism reflects incentive. For instance, in the building industry, a worker can get paid by the hour, or 'piece work', in which he gets paid by the amount done. Guess which way produces more product? People who work for others 'by the clock' don't have nearly the incentive of a shop owner who stays late and puts in long hours because he is making more that way. Most shop owners I know work more than 8 hours a day.

About Christianity and capitalism, I believe God wants us to prosper and be benevolent to our fellow man. The Bible teaches that one should give 10% to the poor, or charity. The more you make, the more that 10% becomes. And of course, the Church (in my view) is a lot more efficient/better at distributing money and things to the needy than Big government. There will always be the greedy, the scofflaw, but there surely is in government as well. I believe that free-markets should determine the price of things and the less government intervention the better. However, again, no system is perfect. You would need to ensure that no monopolies form and cronyism does not prevail.

Now about the interest and scarcity thing, it gets a little complicated. People ask for credit, it is not forced on them. Someone once said to me regarding those 'evil' record companies, (back in the 70's & 80's when they wielded immense power over the artists), where else could you in essence get a 'loan' on future records, before they are sold or made, and with no money put down of your own, and end up wealthy? I believe it also says something in the Bible about charging a fair rate 10% for a loan. Loans in themselves are not bad. To some people it is like dope and they can't seem to get out from underneath it. Things quickly compound, and they find themselves over thier head.

If capitalism is allowed to operate unfettered, I believe it still is the best system there is. Warts and all.

'Dominate' may have been a strong word, but it is mastering your available resources. Of course you shouldn't over-harvest, or rape the land. Some people have no clue, however, and greed takes over. If people showed a bit more fortitude, they would not buy from this type of seller voluntarily, and he would soon be out of business and someone who respects the earth would prosper.

I use the 'small child' analogy to demonstrate effective 'domination'. Here in the USA, it is considered totally off limits to spank your children. They claim that beating on your kids isn't cool. To the point where you can be arrested if you do it in public and someone sees (or 'think' they see) you beating your kids. You're not 'beating' your kids. If you do, you should be arrested. You are 'spanking' them. ( or should be). It is the humiliation, not the pain, that is supposed to humble them into 'submission' (strong word noted).

I hope I have presented this in a clear and unbiased way.
 
spice a dit:
I say, Forkbender deserves credit for being patient with you ellis.

I think all the things he says, without any of the patience he seems to have for your thoughts. I don't know, you say you're an independent, but MANY of your stated positions are conservative, so conservative that you, without seeming to be fully aware of it, are projecting exactly the opposite image of the 'independent' label you attempt to affix to your ideas.

Independent of tolerance....maybe...independent of a desire to change....maybe...

You act like everyone on this board wants to live in a fucking commune, and bring back the glory days of the USSR......

A thorough, critical evaluation of your statements reveal you to be pro-war,
anti-freedom, and pseudo-condescending.


I don't know what your purpose is here, but you're not being honest with any of us. You say one thing, and then you state the opposite.

You claim to dislike Bush, then you defend Palin and McCain.




This is the kind of thing that to me, is counter-productive. You are assuming that Bush and McCain are the same. I believe they are two different people. Varying degrees of difference, but different nevertheless.

I'm really not in love with McCain either, but I truly believe the alternative is worse. I don't like Obama's background--it makes me suspicious.

There is something wrong with you.

Example of counter-productiveness. It almost seems as if it is more important to you to 'fashionably dominate' rather than honestly debate. :wink:
 
And, yes, kudos to Forkbender for being patient and unassailing in his replies. Perhaps there is something for you to glean from his approach.
 
psychedelic: mind + manifest or soul revealing

consumerism is destroying our planet.
10 apples - 10 apples = 0 apples

why is that so difficult to understand?
 
No, perhaps conservatives like yourself take advantage of people who are still open-minded enough to try to convince you of the error of your ways.

I think ideas like the ones you are espousing have had a long enough time to do their convincing, and if much of humanity thinks there's a problem, THAT speaks for itself as well.....

I'm not interested in a debate with people like you, ellis, because I KNOW what ideas like the ones you perpetuate have done to the world, and to our culture.

This is why I talk to you like I do.

You are the personification of a lot of flawed, failed ideologies.

Bush and McCain may be different people on a genetic level, but your argument is astoundingly weak. There is no substantive difference between the two in areas of importance, such as their willingness to go to, and stay at,
war for pretty much any reason, they both are influence peddlers who have been embroiled in huge banking controversies, with the stink of corruption wafting off of their political bodies.


No, you conservatives don't really deserve a political platform in this country anymore.

You've shit the nest.
 
ellis says:

"I use the 'small child' analogy to demonstrate effective 'domination'. Here in the USA, it is considered totally off limits to spank your children. They claim that beating on your kids isn't cool. To the point where you can be arrested if you do it in public and someone sees (or 'think' they see) you beating your kids. You're not 'beating' your kids. If you do, you should be arrested. You are 'spanking' them. ( or should be). It is the humiliation, not the pain, that is supposed to humble them into 'submission' "


Here I will decode some of your bible-thumping bullshit, ellis.

By implication, you think violence to young ones is okay. The LSD never explained to you that we perpetuate violence AS A WAY OF LIFE by doing things such as this?

It was explained to me.

Perhaps I had a better teacher.

To simplify this for you, in case you're having trouble assimilating, I say that what you are doing is teaching the child that violence is the ultimate solution, the last measure, to be used when all else fails.

Can you not see that this type of primate behaivour is completely counter to the lessons psychedelics are supposed to teach?

Why you can't see it is simple;

You are blinded by the bible, and your 'spare the rod, spoil the child' outlook.

How many people would you say are truly QUALIFIED to administer this 'spanking' discipline that you advocate?

By qualified, I mean:

How many people 'spank' when ANGRY?
I'll answer for you; About 97 out of a hundred.

How is that relevant?

I'll answer that for you too.....it is relevant because the anger is what separates 'discipline' from 'assault'.

Don't sit there and talk to us like we're fucking stupid, man.

You know damn well that 'spanking' and 'beating' are abstractions.

This is why it is, and should be, a crime to inflict violence on children.

It's called 'child abuse', bible-thump.

So, what, is it spanking when the hand is open, and only 'beating' when a fist
or inanimate object is utilized?

You'd be amazed at how much damage I could inflict on a grown man with an open hand, ellis.
 
Thanks for your reply, Ellis.

If capitalism is allowed to operate unfettered, I believe it still is the best system there is.

Actually, economic studies show that capitalism works more effectively in countries that regulate the market to a certain extent than in countries where it is allowed to operate unfettered. Check out the work of Erik Olin Wright or Wolfgang Streeck for real world examples. And we are not talking about internal rules of capitalism but about state intervention.

Capitalism without government just turns over the keys to the most greedy bastard willing to exploit everyone and nobody noticing it because he controls the media.
 
in conclusion the worst thing would be greedy bastards in a system of capitalism and the government supporting them??
 
What I've learned from capitalism/contemporary-fascism is that, certainly, the human mouth, is way bigger than its stomach.
Yes yes, the system regulates itself, this is why we now have the ecological crisis, and the thousands dying of hunger and preventable diseases every now and then.
The system regulates itself, this is why the kings of free market are pledging the quazillion tanzillion million dollar package, isn't it?

In the context of neoliberalism, we don't have a concept of humanity nor of community. What we have, instead, are competitive individuals mediated by a market apparatus incessantly producing winners and losers, i.e., humans and non-humans.

Anyone who thinks capacity-better yet in functionalist words: eficiency!- is encouraged through competition owns a very rational and logical way of killing the human spirit. Ego gratification kills every inspiration cell in my body.
 
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