On killing the ego

[EndlessEntity]

Something just crossed my mind: there's a lot of alive ego in this thread!

yea lazerus already pointed that out.

see to me that doesn't sound like ego death, that just sounds like an intense trip... but that's my subjective stance on something unobjectifiable.

me forgetting who i was and getting lost in my hallucinatory cosmos isnt ego death?
i forgot i was alive. i wasnt a person anymore. i was god. i was everything

 

[maxfreakout]

one time...... i underwent a large dose of Divine Moments of Truth and immediately i saw myself being wheeled through a hospital with people all around me looking at me in a concerned manner. I became aware of my lack of control and freaked out. After having a (yes max a tiny bit a fear) i could no longer differentiate myself from the vast cosmos i was being introduced to inside my head. it was all going fine until i saw a NAVY STAMP on the side of my brain and thought that the military was controlling me... yea fuckin crazy i know... so i ran outside and on my way between my apartment and my moms house (their right next to eachother) i saw McKenna's Machine Elves at least i think.. i was staring at a bush because it looked like it and everything else around me was made up of these tiny little green robots with little pointy elf ears. they were twisting and crawling all over eachother, there were billions of them. they made everything.
then i went inside, grabbed my brother by the collar and whispered into his ear "Whats going on?????" he could tell i was frightened. But i was already coming down so no sooner did the question come out that i had the answer. i was crazy
it was like "LIMBO" in inception Lol.. i accepted being crazy and went back in my room and rode out the rest (about 10 minutes) i saw medusa and buddha and chinese soldiers battling it out in shadows. it was beautiful...

a crazy ego death but an ego death no less..

why do you think that this particular trip is ego death? According to which definition of 'ego death' does this trip qualify as ego death? Did you think you had died? Did you think you would never stop tripping and return to normal? Did you feel like this trip profoundly transformed your whole life?

 

[maxfreakout]

me forgetting who i was and getting lost in my hallucinatory cosmos isnt ego death?
i forgot i was alive. i wasnt a person anymore. i was god. i was everything

If you were god and everything, then how could the military be controlling you?

 

[itsscience]

Something just crossed my mind: there's a lot of alive ego in this thread!

This is the humorous point I was trying to make and which IJC has said far more eloquently. I have enjoyed reading about this concept of "ego death" and I in no way have the knowledge on this subject that some of you seem to have, so thank you for sharing your learning.

But this seems to have devolved into a "my ego death definition is better than yours" argument and one that can never be won because the experience is completely subjective to the individual.

If my comments make me a troll then so be it, at least I will serve a purpose:

some people on here are 'trolls' but looking down our noses at them only acknowledges that our heads are high.

Lazarus, I am certainly no tough guy but I'm not a wimp either and it seems to me that someone who can go through all of those experiences, some of which are terribly violent, and never once feel fear is some kind of superhuman!

 

[IJesusChrist]

me forgetting who i was and getting lost in my hallucinatory cosmos isnt ego death?
i forgot i was alive. i wasnt a person anymore. i was god. i was everything

What experienced that?

To have consciousness without an ego would be the ultimate observer. All thing would be objective, all thing quantifiable, nothing subjective. Nothing left but reality, nothing left but an observer, a camera, a picture. There would no longer be an answer to any questions of "why" only "how". The ego, the self creates "why", reality only answers in how.

Being god isn't ego death, its a revelation. Do die in a trip is very intense, extremely intense, but you are still experiencing it. And much the same way I experienced flying - my ego was experiencing flying, your ego was experiencing death. But it never died.

I will stop since I am becoming a hippocrit now and attempting to push my view on what ego death is...

 

[EndlessEntity]

me forgetting who i was and getting lost in my hallucinatory cosmos isnt ego death?
i forgot i was alive. i wasnt a person anymore. i was god. i was everything

If you were god and everything, then how could the military be controlling you?

those were different parts to the same trip.

it was ego death because i lost all subjectivity for a while and didnt know who i was

the military was controlling me by setting up the conditions around me and knowing i would fail and take drugs and reject the system and be forced to turn to them - yes i know its crazy i realized that 5 minutes later

 

[EndlessEntity]

me forgetting who i was and getting lost in my hallucinatory cosmos isnt ego death?
i forgot i was alive. i wasnt a person anymore. i was god. i was everything

What experienced that?

To have consciousness without an ego would be the ultimate observer. All thing would be objective, all thing quantifiable, nothing subjective. Nothing left but reality, nothing left but an observer, a camera, a picture. There would no longer be an answer to any questions of "why" only "how". The ego, the self creates "why", reality only answers in how.

Being god isn't ego death, its a revelation. Do die in a trip is very intense, extremely intense, but you are still experiencing it. And much the same way I experienced flying - my ego was experiencing flying, your ego was experiencing death. But it never died.

I will stop since I am becoming a hippocrit now and attempting to push my view on what ego death is...

i was the universe. i was we. and we was everything. lol
exactly it killed the subjective part of me and All things were objective - the ego death forced me into objective reasoning by killing the part i identify with myself - which is my definition of ego death
yes the constant observer - the ever present awareness thats all i am

 

[maxfreakout]

Your ego death is not my ego death.
My ego is not your ego.
My death is not your death.
My fear is not your fear.
Your pain is not my pain.

If you follow through the line of argument that you are hinting at here ^, you end up with solipsism (the denial that other people have minds) which is an unsustainable philosophical position
It is true that your pain is not my pain, because we are two different people, nevertheless 'pain' means the same thing for me as it does for you (and everyone else), - it is the experience that every normal person has when something hurts you, when my finger gets pricked by a pin, i feel the sensation of pain, when your finger gets pricked by a pin, you feel that exact same sensation. And the same exact principle applies to tripping, dreaming, and all of life’s experiences, even though we don’t experience each others trips, we do nevertheless all experience our own trips, and ‘tripping’ is an overarching concept which applies to everyone. Give a person drugs, and they will trip, in exactly the same way that if you prick a person’s finger with a pin, they will feel pain

How can any one explain their ego death absolutely to another person?

very easily, by saying something like “I took drugs and an hour later I thought I had died”

How can one even say "I've experienced ego death" since ego death's definition only originates from the self.

here ^ you answer your own question, a person can say “ive experienced ego death” simply by saying “ive experienced ego death”
the definition of ‘ego death’ is very simple, it is when you think you have died during an intense altered state of consciousness. If that is something that you have personally experienced, it is perfectly straightforward to tell other people that you have experienced it. The large number of ego death trip reports on erowid demonstrate this, those reports are all instances of people saying that they have experienced ego death, and describing their experience in detail. The common factor that all these trip reports share which brings them all under the broad banner of ‘ego death trips’ is the fact that they all involve the conviction that the person has died (or else permanently left behind the ordinary state of consciousness/ordinary personal existence)
there is a phenomenon here to be acknowledged and accounted for, namely the fact that sometimes when people trip, they become convinced that they have died. This phenomenon occurs fairly regularly amongst trippers, and it is given the name ‘ego death’.

By some people's definition I've experienced it, by others I have not.

If you ever thought you were dead (or permanently insane, or stuck forever in limbo, or whatever) during a trip, then you have experienced ego death, that is all there is to it, it is really perfectly simple to comprehend. People complicate the issue unnecesarily by failing to recognise that the term ‘ego death’ has a simple, straightforward meaning, i.e. mentally ‘dying’ in the intense altered state of consciousness.

I personally don't think there is such a thing as ego death. .

This ^ statement blatantly contradicts the vast weight of evidence, you only have to look at the erowid trip report vaults to see that ego death is completely real, it exists and trippers experience it fairly commonly

The ego is how you function, how you draw conclusions - so in that way, the fact that one can say "i've experienced ego death" shows one is drawing a conclusion on an event, which means the ego was there to facilitate it. .

Yes exactly, when a person trips too hard and experiences mental death (and subsequent rebirth when the trip ends), during which they become convinced that they have died, they will invariably draw the conclusion afterwards that the experience was real, i.e. they will conclude that they thought (wrongly) that they had died, when in fact they were just tripping. That is completely straightforward, in exactly the same way that when a person feels a pin prick in their finger, they will draw the conclusion that they felt a pin prick in their finger
Ego doesn’t ‘disappear’ in ego death, it remains present but its internal structure is loosened

Ego death is loss of consciousness.

Loss of consciousness is something entirely different, and has nothing to do with ego death or intense tripping. You lose consciousness when you get hit very hard on the head, or when you drink a large quantity of alcohol, or whatever, you do not lose consciousness when you trip hard, in fact quite the opposite, consciousness is amplified and expanded during a trip, never diminished

 

[EndlessEntity]

.... wow max....

im gunna have to jump on the bandwagon and abandon this thread - been fun. peace and love

 

[ararat]

^good choice..


max, honestly. stop explaining the universe to us. your reality model is stark and rigid, it is dogmatic. let go of the vanity and narcissism of "knowing it", for you don't know. to really know is not the same as being able to explain everything. the mind can't "know" anything, you can only know by virtue of being the known. David Hawkins calls that "knowingness", a term that hits it quite well.
discussing with you isn't enlightening at all, it is just exhausting and tiring. this thread was meant to be something other than rivalry, mental territoriality and a competition on who knows better.

have you ever asked yourself why you focus so much on egodeath, instead of what is behind? that was the whole topic of the first post. turn your focus on what is behind, not on the ego. Context instead of content.

 

[IJesusChrist]

If you ever thought you were dead (or permanently insane, or stuck forever in limbo, or whatever) during a trip, then you have experienced MY ego death

I'm out.

 

[MrEmo]

ego death is the state after you think you are dieing - when you are fully (exceptionally) conscious and aware, but your thought process are no longer "verbal", when there is no inner dialogue. thats what the ego is, the internal dialogue.
the committee leaves the building and there is no debate and no conflict.
when you think you are dieing, it is your ego that does the thinking. so i think

 

[maxfreakout]

T.Leary would turn over in his grave at you using his name to say that ego death is a bad trip.
.......
The T.Leary version of the tibetan book of the dead does not say that a drug induced ego death is a bad trip.You have interpreted it falsely.

This ^ is false, as the following quote from Leary's 'Tibetan book of the dead' clearly illustrates. Leary, just like every other psychedelic theorist, agrees that ego death is a terrifying bad trip:

"Dominating this ecstatic state is the feeling of intense love. You are a
joyful part of all life. The memory of former delusions of self-hood and
differentiation invokes exultant laughter.

All the harsh, dry, brittle angularity of game life is melted. You drift off
- soft, rounded, moist, warm. Merged with all life. You may feel yourself
floating out and down into a warm sea. Your individuality and autonomy of
movement are moistly disappearing. Your control is surrendered to the total
organism. Blissful passivity. Ecstatic, orgiastic, undulating unity. All
worries and concerns wash away. All is gained as everything is given up.
There is organic revelation. Every cell in your body is singing its song of
freedom - the entire biological universe is in harmony, liberated from the
censorship and control of you and your restricted ambitions.

But wait! You, You, are disappearing into the unity. You are being swallowed
up by the ecstatic undulation. Your ego, that one tiny remaining strand of
self, screams STOP! You are terrified by the pull of the glorious, dazzling,
transparent, radiant red light. You wrench yourself out of the life-flow,
drawn by your intense attachment to your old desires. There is a terrible
rending as your roots tear out of the life matrix - a ripping of your fibres
and veins away from the greater body to which you were attached. And when
you have cut yourself off from the fire-flow of life the throbbing stops,
the ecstasy ceases, your limbs harden and stiffen into angular forms, your
plastic doll body has regained its orientation. There you sit, isolated from
the stream of life, impotent master of your desires and appetites,
miserable."



you should read Leary more carefully before making such dumbass statements

 

[IJesusChrist]

according to t. learys ego death definition, I experienced that nearly a hundred times throughout two years... That's just panic... that is not the ego death. The panic is not the ego death. According to that statement I experienced ego death while high on cannabis listening to techno and electronica...

- I think you are confusing fear of death with ego death. -

Atleast that is my opinion, once again this is a highly subjective subject.

"Don't make such dumbass statement" - really?

 

[maxfreakout]

according to t. learys ego death definition, I experienced that nearly a hundred times throughout two years... That's just panic... that is not the ego death. The panic is not the ego death. According to that statement I experienced ego death while high on cannabis listening to techno and electronica...

- I think you are confusing fear of death with ego death.

it isnt "just panic", more specifically it is panic at the prospect of dying or going permanently crazy or being stuck forever in limbo etc

the fear/panic is an integral aspect of the ego death experience, but it isnt the entire experience itself. The entire experience can be summed up/defined as the encounter with imminent death/doom in the intense mystical altered state, this experience invariably features the experience of fear/panic as a core component, in exactly the same way that the experience of seeing a nearby hungry lion running towards you invariably features the experience of fear/panic as a core component.

it would be wrong to say that the fear of death just simply IS the ego death experience in its entirety, in the same way that it would be wrong to say that the fear of death just IS the hungry lion experience. There is MORE to the hungry lion experience that JUST the experience of fear (such as the hungry lion himself, the physical pain of being eaten alive, the attempts to escape etc.), but fear is a core component.

In the same way that ANYONE (or at least, any normal person with normal survival instincts) who sees a hungry lion will invariably experience fear, so too will ANYONE who starts to think they are dying or going insane whilst tripping will invariably experience fear.

ego death is centrally characterised by profound feelings of fear/panic

 

[McAllister]

Max, I don't think Leary was intending to describe ego-death when he wrote that passage. That's the description of what might happen to you if you experience the Fire-Flow of Internal Unity vision. He goes on to say:


When this happens, there are several steps which can take you back to the biological flow (and from there to the First Bardo). First, close your eyes. Lie on you stomach and let you body sink through the floor, merge with the surroundings. Feel the hard, square edges of your body soften and start to move in the bloodstream. Let the rhythm of breathing become tide flow. Bodily contact is probably the most effective method of softening hardened surfaces. No movement. No body games. Close physical contact with another invariably brings about the unity of fire-flow. Your blood begins to flow into the other's body. His breathing pours into your lungs. You both drift down the capillary river.


Which I take it is Leary's proposed solution if you get into that dilemma, and it's helpful if you trip with a partner or partners.

 

[Henkfloyd]

Reading this thread I feel inclined to add my 2 cents.

In the same way that ANYONE (or at least, any normal person with normal survival instincts) who sees a hungry lion will invariably experience fear, so too will ANYONE who starts to think they are dying or going insane whilst tripping will invariably experience fear.

ego death is centrally characterised by profound feelings of fear/panic

While I agree with you that an ego death may be an extremely frightening experience, this doesn't HAVE to be the case. It will only be frightening when the tripper has not accepted his/her own death fully. Ask yourself why are you scared of dying.

I myself had one very frightening ego death experience when I was fairly new to tripping and I thought I could take on the world and I kept increasing the dose. I was shattered by the experience, but I returned to psychedelics to work my way through my fear of dying and since then I've experienced numerous ego death experiences which were all very peacefull (but bloody INTENSE). For me it feels like returning home, to the source of life, where there is only Love.

However I respect what you do with your podcasts, I think it is wrong to blatantly state that your experience with ego death must be the only valid way of experiencing it, as various people already pointed out before. Seek the truth behind your fear in yourself

When you are happy with your life and fully accept the notion of your own death, ego may resist, as it is indeed a natural defense mechanism, but your true self can step away from ego's resistance and accept the experience by surrendering.

It really IS possible to experience ego death without having a bad trip. The fact that you haven't experienced this (yet) doesn't mean other people can't. So please stop dismissing other people's experiences, it makes you look rather immature and ignorant. Phd or no phd.

I wish you the all the best in your further trips/life. Try to keep an open mind and question your fears.

Peace and Love

Henkfloyd

 

[maxfreakout]

Max, I don't think Leary was intending to describe ego-death when he wrote that passage.

The entire book is about the experience of consciousness after death, the passage i quoted shows that this experience is not all about peace and blissfullness. There is a problem of terminology because Leary never talks about an 'ego death experience', rather he talks about the 'point' of ego death, but in any case we can translate this as the kinds of experiences that people have when they trip hard

 

[maxfreakout]

While I agree with you that an ego death may be an extremely frightening experience, this doesn't HAVE to be the case. It will only be frightening when the tripper has not accepted his/her own death fully. Ask yourself why are you scared of dying.

Everybody is scared of dying, that is what the 'Saw' movies are all about. Remember the hungry lion example, if you saw a hungry lion running towards you, you would invariably become terrified. No amount of 'acceptance' is going to change that, we are all programmed to protect our own lives, and fear of death is a crucial aspect of that programming. We are scared of dying because we value our lives

I myself had one very frightening ego death experience when I was fairly new to tripping and I thought I could take on the world and I kept increasing the dose. I was shattered by the experience, but I returned to psychedelics to work my way through my fear of dying and since then I've experienced numerous ego death experiences which were all very peacefull (but bloody INTENSE).

Are you suggesting that you are now immune to shattering bad trips because you had one bad trip in the past?
having one bad trip doesnt make you immune to having bad trips in the future, all you can do is seek to understand them more fully and learn techniqes to get through them safely and recover from them fully afterwards

Or, are you suggesting that having had one bad trip, you have now overcome fear of death? If that was true then you would be claiming that you would not feel scared if you saw a hungry lion running towards you baring its teeth, which would be very hard to believe

pleasant, blissful trips can be incredibly intense and magical, but they do not have the same level of transformative intensity as the ego death trip

I think it is wrong to blatantly state that your experience with ego death must be the only valid way of experiencing it

I agree, every initiate experiences their own death and rebirth, in their own circumstances. There is no such thing as an 'invalid' experience of death and rebirth. The distinction isnt between valid and invalid experiences, rather it is between people who experience it and people who dont

When you are happy with your life and fully accept the notion of your own death, ego may resist, as it is indeed a natural defense mechanism, but your true self can step away from ego's resistance and accept the experience by surrendering.

yes the ego is programmed to resist its own death (whether or not you are 'happy with life'), and that is the cause of the difficult experiences. Nobody ever 'fully accepts' death, in exactly the same way that nobody would ever sit there and do/feel nothing when they see a hungry lion running towards them

 

[Henkfloyd]

Are you suggesting that you are now immune to shattering bad trips because you had one bad trip in the past?
having one bad trip doesnt make you immune to having bad trips in the future, all you can do is seek to understand them more fully and learn techniqes to get through them safely and recover from them fully afterwards.

I don't really believe in the concept "bad trip". A trip is a trip, some trips you learn more then other trips. Often the more difficult ones are the most insightfull. However I am not suggesting I can nolonger have "bad trips", ie. experience fear. I merely say I have come to terms with my own death. I still could be shown things I may not directly accept
When approaching ego-death during a trip my ego does resist, but I learned I am NOT my ego, something I believe you refuse to accept according to your replies. So when my ego goes to survival mode I "sit back" so to speak and let ego hit me with everything its got. Stare it right in the eye and let all happen.

Nobody ever 'fully accepts' death

This pretty much says everything about where you are.

I'm gonna be with the other smart folks and also abandon this thread, good luck max.

Ever watched The Fountain? You should