magick?
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IJesusChrist
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don't confuse shamanism with magick.
I am all for shamanism. If you talk about magick or magic around me I'll laugh at you.
I am all for shamanism. If you talk about magick or magic around me I'll laugh at you.
IJesusChrist
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They see.
IJesusChrist
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Here is my ignorant opinion:
Magick deals with changing the future in your favor via neo-psychological, telepathical, or by ways in which science cannot or does not explain.
Shamanism, and this will not fit all of your descriptions, in my view is this;
The viewing of biological signatures in nature, either from human expression, plant life, or by feeling via one of the 5 senses a subconscious cue in nature for things to come.
When I think of shamanism, I immidiately think of a person reading someone's bodily, verbal, and psychological signs in order to help, cure, or diagnose someone. I see them "reading" the leave of a plant in order to gather information about the surrounding area. The ability for a shaman is, by experience or some other unbeknownst to me method, to be able to extrapolate the "big picture" from a small amount of information. The ability to observe a/an acre, forest, country, or the entire earth by watching the ripples in water, or readings from life.
When I think of magick, I see ancient rituals. I see prayers, faiths, and other methods for hope and change of the future. Magick, in my opinion, does not rely on the analysis of the the person or place but relies on other worldy forces to change, help, cure, etc. Magick does not rely on a proven or understood method other than long-held beliefs.
The main difference is I see shamanism based on the observation of nature, where magick is based on other-worldly forces that cannot or will not be explained by science.
We may differ, but in my view, they are substantially different.
Magick deals with changing the future in your favor via neo-psychological, telepathical, or by ways in which science cannot or does not explain.
Shamanism, and this will not fit all of your descriptions, in my view is this;
The viewing of biological signatures in nature, either from human expression, plant life, or by feeling via one of the 5 senses a subconscious cue in nature for things to come.
When I think of shamanism, I immidiately think of a person reading someone's bodily, verbal, and psychological signs in order to help, cure, or diagnose someone. I see them "reading" the leave of a plant in order to gather information about the surrounding area. The ability for a shaman is, by experience or some other unbeknownst to me method, to be able to extrapolate the "big picture" from a small amount of information. The ability to observe a/an acre, forest, country, or the entire earth by watching the ripples in water, or readings from life.
When I think of magick, I see ancient rituals. I see prayers, faiths, and other methods for hope and change of the future. Magick, in my opinion, does not rely on the analysis of the the person or place but relies on other worldy forces to change, help, cure, etc. Magick does not rely on a proven or understood method other than long-held beliefs.
The main difference is I see shamanism based on the observation of nature, where magick is based on other-worldly forces that cannot or will not be explained by science.
We may differ, but in my view, they are substantially different.
When the inquisition started, use of plants (among other things) was discouraged (to say it nicely). All interesting ideas have been banished from our culture and our language until very recently. We didn't believe the earth was flat in the middle ages, we where forced to forget it was round. Just as we where forced to forget who where are and submit to a stolen pagan God called Jesus.
If something is forbidden for over a 1000 years, people will forget what it really was and fill in the gaps with what their fantasy comes up with. It's not an accident that most old witches tales include frogs, toads and/or toadstools as ingredients of their most potent brews, it's old taboo, punishable by death for a few hundred years, seeping into our consciousness. It's a fact that the Amanita muscaria was added to the inquisition 'law' around 1240 as a forbidden plant.
There is as much shamanisn, real shamanisn, in our history, as there is in the amazon. It's just been hidden and shuffled under the carpet by the powers that be for so long, that it's mostly become unrecognizable to us.
Mircea Eliade once stated that shamanism that makes use of entheogens, is degraded shamanism. I feel strongly that it's the other way around, magick is degraded shamanism that arose out of political reasons or climate shifts which caused the sacraments that where previously used, to be forbidden or just disappear from the land.
Is my opinion
Peace
HC
If something is forbidden for over a 1000 years, people will forget what it really was and fill in the gaps with what their fantasy comes up with. It's not an accident that most old witches tales include frogs, toads and/or toadstools as ingredients of their most potent brews, it's old taboo, punishable by death for a few hundred years, seeping into our consciousness. It's a fact that the Amanita muscaria was added to the inquisition 'law' around 1240 as a forbidden plant.
There is as much shamanisn, real shamanisn, in our history, as there is in the amazon. It's just been hidden and shuffled under the carpet by the powers that be for so long, that it's mostly become unrecognizable to us.
Mircea Eliade once stated that shamanism that makes use of entheogens, is degraded shamanism. I feel strongly that it's the other way around, magick is degraded shamanism that arose out of political reasons or climate shifts which caused the sacraments that where previously used, to be forbidden or just disappear from the land.
Is my opinion
Peace
HC
waygie
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IJesusChrist a dit:
i completely agree with the ability to see the big picture out of the something small. I've even almost said that same thing, I said "the subconsious knows everything about the entire universe by looking at a the current of a river. The thing is that is "magic" and it is scientific (I also think it's possible to "see" anything via astral projection because of this same thing. The only thing is it's all interpretations of truth and could be wrong) I think you're confusing scientific with the scientific status quo. 2 thousand years ago a round world wasn't "scientific"
To me Magick means in particular 19th-20th century occultism onwards. That's specifically what I think of when I hear the word Magick and that's what I mean when I refer to it in this post.
Although its an interesting idea I doubt Magick is a kind of crippled shamanism like HeartCore suggests. The history doesn't bare that out. And anyway, aspiring modern occultists will likely use psychedelics along with all their other "tools" unless they have a specific reason not to. Its kind of part of the package.
Magick is amazing if you can manage to become experienced in it without fucking yourself up in one of the many exotic ways to get lost in it. That's the main trouble with Magick. At first it takes considerable persistence but its generally safe. Once you do manage to take off there is a tendency to fly way too high and burn up in a big mess. Another trouble is other magicians, especially if they've got together to form pseudo-religious sects. Great places to learn so long as you manage to get out once you've got what you needed.
Although its an interesting idea I doubt Magick is a kind of crippled shamanism like HeartCore suggests. The history doesn't bare that out. And anyway, aspiring modern occultists will likely use psychedelics along with all their other "tools" unless they have a specific reason not to. Its kind of part of the package.
Magick is amazing if you can manage to become experienced in it without fucking yourself up in one of the many exotic ways to get lost in it. That's the main trouble with Magick. At first it takes considerable persistence but its generally safe. Once you do manage to take off there is a tendency to fly way too high and burn up in a big mess. Another trouble is other magicians, especially if they've got together to form pseudo-religious sects. Great places to learn so long as you manage to get out once you've got what you needed.
IJesusChrist
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proteus your picture is hilarious.
McAllister
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As an avid Aleister Crowley reader I equate magick with being the art and science of cause and effect. Even such a thing as turning on my broadband (cause) to access the internet (effect) is a form of magick albeit a lower form of magick. What occult groups like the Golden Dawn etc practice is supposedly a higher form of magick.
Having read in particular Book Four part 2, Magick in Theory and Practice and Roll away the Stone I'm convinced that when I go into a shroom trip I'm covering ground where Crowley has already been, and that Crowley was a pioneer.
When I'm on a shroom trip (cause) I feel closer and more connected to plant life (effect), and that impression stays with me long after the trip is over. I personally feel that magick is a general term, and that shamanism is one particular branch of higher magick with it's own methods of cause and effect.
Having read in particular Book Four part 2, Magick in Theory and Practice and Roll away the Stone I'm convinced that when I go into a shroom trip I'm covering ground where Crowley has already been, and that Crowley was a pioneer.
When I'm on a shroom trip (cause) I feel closer and more connected to plant life (effect), and that impression stays with me long after the trip is over. I personally feel that magick is a general term, and that shamanism is one particular branch of higher magick with it's own methods of cause and effect.
McAllister
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Without discussing any of the contents of The Book of the Law, many of my thoughts on it are mirrored, and to a certain extent influenced by, The Cosmic Trigger by Robert Anton Wilson, a truly excellent book if you can manage to get your hands on a copy.
Shamanomenon
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Shamanism was the first religion. Essentially, we woke up on a strange planet without any knowledge of who we were, why we're here or what we're supposed to be doing. Psychedelics were an integral part of our worldview, our spirituality and our interaction with other living things. As primitive as early life was, as far as I am concerned, it was the pinnacle of our species. We lived in harmony with nature, with each other (relatively speaking), and with our own minds.
Since then, it's been nothing but system after system designed to break you down mentally, physically and spiritually. Natural has been replaced with synthetic in almost all aspects of life. There is a great shadow over this world.
I consider myself to be a Shaman, because as IJC mentioned, I see the big picture and I see how even the smallest thing fits in it. I don't claim to be able to do magic, because the magic is already there. You just need to be able to see it and allow it to flow through you unimpeded. It calls to you all the time, but most people choose to ignore it or just write it off to coincidence.
I was one of those people, until I was called to do something that was completely uncharacteristic of me and during which time I experienced what I could only describe as synchronicity. From this moment on, it created a sort of spiritual awakening in me that caused me to become obsessive about figuring out life. I was researching things from Carl Jung, Robert Anton Wilson, physics, how the brain works, cognitive evolution, evolutionary psychology, isolation chambers, etc... This all culminated with my foray into psychedelics and it's been a hell of a ride ever since!
As far as I am concerned, from my own personal research, all of those things are connected, as well as magick, because it's all about learning, evolving and fulfilling our potential as human beings to create our own reality. We we're primitive and perfect, now we've become modern failures, but I have faith that eventually we will learn to use our technology in a way that works with nature and allows us to thrive as a species once again.
Since then, it's been nothing but system after system designed to break you down mentally, physically and spiritually. Natural has been replaced with synthetic in almost all aspects of life. There is a great shadow over this world.
I consider myself to be a Shaman, because as IJC mentioned, I see the big picture and I see how even the smallest thing fits in it. I don't claim to be able to do magic, because the magic is already there. You just need to be able to see it and allow it to flow through you unimpeded. It calls to you all the time, but most people choose to ignore it or just write it off to coincidence.
I was one of those people, until I was called to do something that was completely uncharacteristic of me and during which time I experienced what I could only describe as synchronicity. From this moment on, it created a sort of spiritual awakening in me that caused me to become obsessive about figuring out life. I was researching things from Carl Jung, Robert Anton Wilson, physics, how the brain works, cognitive evolution, evolutionary psychology, isolation chambers, etc... This all culminated with my foray into psychedelics and it's been a hell of a ride ever since!
As far as I am concerned, from my own personal research, all of those things are connected, as well as magick, because it's all about learning, evolving and fulfilling our potential as human beings to create our own reality. We we're primitive and perfect, now we've become modern failures, but I have faith that eventually we will learn to use our technology in a way that works with nature and allows us to thrive as a species once again.
McAllister
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"Do What Thou Wilt" means interface with the higher will then be its avatar/representative on Earth, as opposed to "Do Whatever You Want" which could involve catering to negative demands from the lower ego.
When I feel I've interfaced with higher beings via a shroom trip I want to spread the love and tell of the feelings of connectedness and harmony with nature I feel. The last thing I want to do is debate the contents of the Book of the Law.
The higher will is an individual thing that will be different for different people. Therefore I think Crowley has it right when he warns people of discussing the contents of the Book of the Law, since it is an individual guide book that will mean different things to different people, and it's pointless wasting time creating grief and negative karma arguing all the different opinions people have of it when there is no one size fits all. Better to just bask in the love, peace and harmony of the universe and spread the good karma.
When I feel I've interfaced with higher beings via a shroom trip I want to spread the love and tell of the feelings of connectedness and harmony with nature I feel. The last thing I want to do is debate the contents of the Book of the Law.
The higher will is an individual thing that will be different for different people. Therefore I think Crowley has it right when he warns people of discussing the contents of the Book of the Law, since it is an individual guide book that will mean different things to different people, and it's pointless wasting time creating grief and negative karma arguing all the different opinions people have of it when there is no one size fits all. Better to just bask in the love, peace and harmony of the universe and spread the good karma.