How can they?

[faithless]

When eating, I accidentaly saw on TV people talking about politics.

Those stupid guys are always the same: they all talk at the same time, not letting the other one say what he's got to say.

And they're all talking with the aim of... not saying anything. I mean they could say something interesting, a sentence that explains their goal. They always use words that half the population is able to understand (I am not in that part ), and after some time, all start shouting and getting angry.

And the worst thing: they all lie. All the time.



I was just wondering what kind of person could be like that. How man could become such a liar. ><


I did not create this post so that people say "i'm with you, this world sucks".. This is just something I wanted to say

have a good day everyone

(oh and I say that everytime I post something: but excuse my bad english )

 

[spice]

If they used words we could all understand, it'd be easy to throw them out on their ears.

You must be inherently dishonest to be a politician in the first place.

That's why they're taught to not speak plainly....use a lot of abstractions ( concepts like 'good for the people'.....which people? yet if you listen, he presumes to speak for everyone....to me thats intellectual dishonesty ) and never, ever, use absolutes, like yes, I'm for it....or Hell, no, I am against it...this makes it hard to change positions in the future, and make NO mistake about it, this is where the car ran off the road, so to speak....

If you won't commit to an honest answer, based on regular wording, that everyone can understand EASILY, then you're underhanded, and up for sale, thats WHY you won't commit, so you can sell the values that you have bamboozled people inti thinking you actually had, to some damn lobby or special interest group.

 

[gammagoblin]

I guess the big question is, how to change it all?? Current politics are a mess but I still think we need some form of governing seeing the majority of people are just mindless sheep following their leader.

 

[Dantediv86]

You forgot "powerhungry to the core" or you wouldn't want people to vote for you

 

[spice]

gammagoblin- Well, lets examine two things;

1) How it got to this point


2) Why is it still AT this point?

How it got to this point is easy enough, it grew to this point undirected, guided by nothing but expansionist greed, therefore the answer lies in reversing these things.

FIRST, you'll never, ever, E-V-E-R have anything worth a shit until Capitalistic ambitions are squashed.....

The entire capitalistic way of life is the cause of most problems we face today. The fact that it has grown so big is the reason why noone feels they have a voice, so part of the answer is that people MUST ABANDON THE CITIES, this is a simple concept, but very difficult , in practice, as the cities are where TV tells us we need to be, all the women are in the cities, all the cars are in the cities, all the cool things are happening in the cities....bullshit such as this....
When in fact it can be seen that cities are really just giant cesspools of stagnation, pollution, and concentrated industrial power, the essence of all evil, basically, that we've been conditioned, by repetition, to think we NEED.

2) why is it still AT this point?

Because people are LAZY, inherently....there are enough good things that no one wants to lose to somewhat offset what would have to be done if one abandons civic life.....roughing it....

But as always, it will take pioneers, people who dont GIVE A SHIT what everyone else is saying, to start it.

It must be something that has never been seen before, something novel, something new....a combination of barter, collectivism, and self-sufficiency, the essence of what used to be a 'village', much looser knit, and not under a centralized, Roman-Empire-descended governing force.....in other words, REAL FREEDOM.

Don't hold your breath waiting for it.

Everyone must BE it.

 

[Faust]

gammagoblin- Well, lets examine two things;

1) How it got to this point


2) Why is it still AT this point?

How it got to this point is easy enough, it grew to this point undirected, guided by nothing but expansionist greed, therefore the answer lies in reversing these things.

FIRST, you'll never, ever, E-V-E-R have anything worth a shit until Capitalistic ambitions are squashed.....

The entire capitalistic way of life is the cause of most problems we face today. The fact that it has grown so big is the reason why noone feels they have a voice, so part of the answer is that people MUST ABANDON THE CITIES, this is a simple concept, but very difficult , in practice, as the cities are where TV tells us we need to be, all the women are in the cities, all the cars are in the cities, all the cool things are happening in the cities....bullshit such as this....
When in fact it can be seen that cities are really just giant cesspools of stagnation, pollution, and concentrated industrial power, the essence of all evil, basically, that we've been conditioned, by repetition, to think we NEED.

2) why is it still AT this point?

Because people are LAZY, inherently....there are enough good things that no one wants to lose to somewhat offset what would have to be done if one abandons civic life.....roughing it....

But as always, it will take pioneers, people who dont GIVE A SHIT what everyone else is saying, to start it.

It must be something that has never been seen before, something novel, something new....a combination of barter, collectivism, and self-sufficiency, the essence of what used to be a 'village', much looser knit, and not under a centralized, Roman-Empire-descended governing force.....in other words, REAL FREEDOM.

Don't hold your breath waiting for it.

Everyone must BE it.

The problem is that large crowds are hard to move. And we've become so incredibly large that it's almost impossible to be moved. We can't go back to living in villages. We had to move towards industrialization because it was the only way to support such a large crowd. All of the exploitation is done for our survival.
If we'd be more sparse we could probably lessen the exploitation of the earth but that will only lead us to grow bigger and exploit things more and more.

I don't think we're doing it out of sheer evilness but out of naïve goodness, we're just trying to survive, and that's exactly what's leading us to an opposite goal.

 

[spice]

No, we were LED to industrialization, make no mistake about it, by the very same forces that practiced the same lack of ethics BEFORE there ever even was industry as we have come to recognize it....

I do not, at all agree with your premise that 'all of this was done for our survival'....

'All of this'.... 'this' being industry was developed by scientists exploring knowledge, but the same faction of domination-obsessed
idiots ruining everything today perverted discovery, turning it into earth-rape , and disregard for the dignity of many in the selfish strivings of few.

And we're GOING back to villages, at best, whether we want to or not, once the poles shift, the global climate-change intensifies, and reduces our so-called civilization to ruin....


See you there.

 

[spice]

You are coveniently ignoring several thousand years of evidence to the contrary, saying you think that this was caused by misguided do-gooding.
:idea:

 

[faithless]

The thing that I think sucks the most, is that for me there is no solution that we could find and put in place to change all that crap.

What I think is that people will soon be aware of the problem, and everyones mind will change to something good for EVERYONE. We will stop thinking about our survival in the society, and start thinking for everyone.

But I'm afraid (and I'm sure) there will still be people who will take profits of that. Just like politics are now making money with our stupidity.

 

[random]

But I'm afraid (and I'm sure) there will still be people who will take profits of that. Just like politics are now making money with our stupidity.

I think they are making money with their stupidity. We? ( I mean we, the majority. The lost souls around the world ) We just "watch too much tv" ( this is just funny statement to criticise many things. I'm not just pointing to the biggest and, probably the only one, Drug man ever created. The other's that we consider Drugs, or put in the same bag, are mind expanders. Make your Intepertation. )

Well, I know many things are wrong ( if that bad exists ). (Hum, who knows... maybe the planet cicle had come to an end, and we are the pyoneers of its own destruction.... Who says to you that "Mars" didn't had Life Zibilikilions years ago? You just can't say. Even if you can, will be only interpertations of our way of seeing things.

The thing that I think sucks the most, is that for me there is no solution that we could find and put in place to change all that crap.

But my optimistic side, is that we ( western society ) are locked on our own chains. And we don't know they are there. And who do think they know they are there, feel too weak. And in fact, We are. I'm one in the middle of more than 7 billions human lifes. And Other uncountable number of other animal species, cells, etc etc etc.... But the Idea is: We have to play the same game and spread our way of viewing the world. Quoting , again, "uncle Terence", "we have to get out of the closet" and spread the world massivly!! That's, in my idea, it's probably the best possibility that we can have to start calling people to Reason, and help them step out of everything that feeds Their Ego, and Ego Values. Because that ego, it's not even ours... it's a creation of the values and culture and rules we live in. We can't start from the from the end!
So Spread your word. Because there are many people out there that have the same ideas, or similar ( they just need to ear them... and feel identified with them selfs and the energy surrounding them ) as you and me!
Language it's a great weapon! We can see it from here!! (used in the bad way) , Lets fight and use it the right way!

Regards!

 

[Guest]

if I lie to you, you say: "that bastard...i will never trust him again".
if i am a politician and i lie, or break an agreement, you say: "what a great political move".


we can't move from the cities ? i moved last week
i can't say i miss the carcinogenic industrial smoke, all the people with the ugly faces in the morning, having no stars on the sky, listening to traffic instead of birds and cocks, all the tar, glass and concrete....and LOVING the good old smell of animal shit in the morning. no more fancy perfumes and specially...neighbours. now i can play my drums as i like!


i have said this over and over in this forum: we will never think for the group. we never did, even when civilizations were collapsing. we just grab our stuff and try to get out. we are the same species with advanced technology. thinking that one day, by magic, all our problems will be solved and we will learn to think to the benefit of mankind, is not realistic, and if you search deep inside, you will find it so. it would be very beautiful and romantic, but let's not play with ourselves on this.
if you fall on the sidewalk, how many people will help you ? and we are talking about a trivial thing...now imagine if everyone was in trouble, if they would stop and help you, and me, and my cousin. if they had the chance, wouldn't they grab their family and disapear ?
we never had the global consciousness, and in my humble opinion, never will.

 

[Faust]

No, we were LED to industrialization, make no mistake about it, by the very same forces that practiced the same lack of ethics BEFORE there ever even was industry as we have come to recognize it....

I do not, at all agree with your premise that 'all of this was done for our survival'....

'All of this'.... 'this' being industry was developed by scientists exploring knowledge, but the same faction of domination-obsessed
idiots ruining everything today perverted discovery, turning it into earth-rape , and disregard for the dignity of many in the selfish strivings of few.

And we're GOING back to villages, at best, whether we want to or not, once (the poles shift, the global climate-change intensifies, and reduces our so-called civilization to ruin....


See you there.

Power corrupts, there's no doubt about that. But the people who made industrialization possible weren't the powerful and powerhungry kings and landlords. They were just people who tried to make sure the large mass of people were being fed, wear clothes and have a place to live. Bio-industry isn't made by someone who's just pure evil, it's made by someone who's inventive and had an idea about how to produce lots of food with little effort and space. It just so happened to be quite degrading to animals. Still it's done out of "loyalty" towards humans.

(Ofcourse the problem isn't this simple, I've just concentrated on a small factor)

We've grown so massive that our environment can't sustain us anymore, not for long anyway. Going back to villages sounds promising but theres no way 6 billion people can live like that.

So basically I'm agreeing with you. I'm just saying that there's no group of evil people just doing evil things everywhere. That's a myth. There's just a bunch of people trying to survive and making a mess of things.

 

[random]

we can't move from the cities ? i moved last week Very Happy
i can't say i miss the carcinogenic industrial smoke, all the people with the ugly faces in the morning, having no stars on the sky, listening to traffic instead of birds and cocks, all the tar, glass and concrete....

Yes we can move. But we think we have our lifes here and can't survive out there. Well, a great example of that it's Henry Thoreau. ( witch he wasn't, and I think he said that somewhere in his book "Walden: Or Life in the Woods") during the time he lived "outside" the cities and "alone" near a lake.

And he haves a beautifull way of seeing materealistic-ego-desires:
"A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone."

and LOVING the good old smell of animal shit in the morning. no more fancy perfumes and specially...neighbours. now i can play my drums as i like!

Ahahah! Fellow daytripper, that statement says so much things for itself, in a really comic way! Maybe those smells make some people feel the more natural side of life. The Animal Side, and not too much on the Cyborg side, I guess

i have said this over and over in this forum: we will never think for the group. we never did..

This is right! (in someway, well at least as long as we can recall proves in human history. I mean feeling it's the major proof of each one of us. People don't tend to feel things about this kind of issues, they just can't have a rational thought about it. Because they are distracted with lifes entertainments and consuming shit-brain Information) But ,again, we failed in our speaking language throught mouth! Ther's no such thing as group because that necesseraly means that there are more than just one. And we Are one... without the need of competition (witch is a major state of mind that leads human mind!), without need of fear, without the need of Ego! And then, I think, we we're ready to make a Sane Step (that not kill millions of people on long terms, and don't fuck up the planet) witch are not that much in the last milleniums.

So basically I'm agreeing with you. I'm just saying that there's no group of evil people just doing evil things everywhere. That's a myth. There's just a bunch of people trying to survive and making a mess of things.

That's leads to other subject: Conspiracy about Power or about Who Runs This Machine. And I'm not much into that. But I think there maybe no "Evil" force ( or maybe ) auto-destroying his own specie. ( Or maybe we are just a Test of some Et's outhere and they forgot about us, or the connections we could have with them were suppressed by Ignorant-Hair-Heads-With-Bogus-Power-Called-Paper, and now we don't know what to do with life and lost the "meaning" of life trying to give it a "meaning".

 

[spice]

Faust- I'm sorry, but you are a bit more optimistic regarding the attributes of your fellow man than I am.

If you can make me a convincing argument that Dick Cheney is just misguided, I'll accept your premise.

 

[Guest]

faust - if no one is evil, why did the slavery ended ?
i'll give you four choices, "who wants to be a millionaire" style:

a)because magically, the world leaders woke up one day, and while taking a shit all together, they thought that no one should be slave;
b)while taking a drink, the president of the US couldn't concentrate because the slaves entered and were making much noise: "damn, let's end this slavery BS, so i can have my whiskey in peace!!!"
c) one morning, someone wrote in st. Peters square: "end this slavery thing or i ... Jesus"
d) the steam-engine was invented, and before all slaves were made redundant and started to mob and killing their boss, they were given freedom, so they would starting working with "free-will" on factories, again slaves, but thinking they were free, which was more efficient, because they wanted to be slaves, just like us with our little meaningless jobs.


no 50-50 or phone, but you can ask for the help from our lovely audience.

edit:
i will even give you more questions: why did the afgans rebelled ? more important, where did they got the weapons ? (i'll give you a clue...war with the russians in the 80's - cold war) and the iranians ? the iraqis ?
what happened in ruanda with the utus/tutsis in 94 ? check out any Palladium book on weapons and see what the most exotics were made for. read Alvin Toffler's "third wave" and see why time means so much to us today. read Phillippe Ariès' "the hour of our death" and see why we die in hospitals and not at home. think about money taking over trade. think about your educational system. your health system. why do you work or study ? think about catholic church. think about the fact that the winners write the story, and see what is written about the colosseum in rome. about carthage. go ahead and read what the chinese thought of mongolian, and what the americans thought of the japanese before and after pearl harbour. i could continue endlessly. if you can't see evil in any of those things, i urge you to look better.

 

[Meduzz]

haha nice post daytripper

But i have to agree with Faust one some points.
The industrialisation is suposed to be there to feed us, and make a nice working system.

Unfortunally, the corrupt survive better in today's economics.

If the industrial process would be just about feeding, there would be no problem.
Working = input, food and shelter = output.

But the output part is where it goes wrong nowadays...

We don't get sufficient output for the input we provide, because:

1) We have sold our souls, our output is not only food, but also ipods, electrical tin openers, dental assurance, cellphones, computers...

2) The corrupt earn 1000x more money than one needs for living.

And what do we do about it? Vote socialists?

Of course in economics, there are 10000 factors and 10000 points of view. This was one of mine.

And about political issues:
1) Your country is run by corporations and people behind the curtains (example n°1: USA)
2) Your country is run by idiots (2007 n°1: The Belgian pseudo-government)

And Democracy has become an illusion. Yes, they let us free to choose... but they control the options.

 

[Meduzz]

more important, where did they got the weapons ? (i'll give you a clue...war with the russians in the 80's - cold war) and the iranians ? the iraqis ?

History repeats: Bush requested more oil production from Saudi Arabia, they said they would see if it would profit the land's economics.
Bush provides Saudi Arabia with billions of dollars in weapons.
Bush provides Israël with billions of dollars in weapons for protection agains the Saudi's new weapon arsenal.

I mean, WTF??

 

[Brugmansia]

Sometimes you wish there was only music... 8)

 

[Guest]

The industrialisation is suposed to be there to feed us, and make a nice working system.

Unfortunally, the corrupt survive better in today's economics.

you enterily missed my point: industries are the modern way of slavery. it started with industries, and then corporations, and now, enterprises, tv, magazines, etc. it is all BS.
NATURE is the only thing that is there to feed us and make everything work. everything else is a lie that we are told. industries were made to earn money (by the bourgeois, first in the UK, then central europe, then north america).
search history and you will see: everytime corruption peaks in a society, it is near its end.

 

[Meduzz]

it started with industries, and then corporations, and now, enterprises, tv, magazines, etc. it is all BS.
...
industries were made to earn money (by the bourgeois, first in the UK, then central europe, then north america).
...
search history and you will see: everytime corruption peaks in a society, it is near its end.

That's what i meant

I just wanted to illustrate what industry is suposed to do...
and how the corrupt prevail in the end.

You want what? A place where everybody has his own vegetable yard?
One day your a guy will go to his neighbour and will propose to work on the neighbour's yard for a part of the harvest.
And they will exchange food...
Then the problem: how much potatoes are carrots woth?
Then you get money.
Then some lazy ass makes a machine to do his work.
He sells the machine and everybody becomes a lazy ass.
and he gets very rich...
The people have more spare time and less money to spend in that spare time because of the work being done by machines...

Taaadaaa, capitalism in a nutshell