Quoi de neuf ?

Bienvenue sur Psychonaut.fr !

Le forum des amateur.ices de drogues et de l'exploration de l'esprit

'Attacking a Sacred Cow' (my manifesto on the military)

  • Auteur de la discussion Auteur de la discussion spice
  • Date de début Date de début
To break the apathy is to break the spell that the neo-cons have everyone under......generally, from what is apparent to me, apathy is the shield that they hide behind, secure in the thought that as long as everyone has an Ipod, and a car, and soap operas on TV, all these things being ways to not confront daily realities, that things can carry on, hence the term 'sheep'.....the many led by the few.....sheep want to be protected from predators, period.

They don't realize that the shepherd, having gained their trust, is also the same being that occasionally kills some of them, so HE can eat them, instead of the wolf.

Essentially, the compact between sheep and shepherd is a damage reduction agreeemnet, the willing sacrifice of some, for the overall health of the herd. But when the shepherd loses his way, and loses his good judgement....he just becomes another, much more lethal, wolf.

This discussion has forced me to realize that maybe there are 'some' guys in the military who don't belong there, who believe that this offensive is wrong,
but that just strengthens my view that training men to blindly follow orders, even when that order is: 'Run into the line of fire'

Is not what humanity needs.....the only way that the traditional notion of militarized warfare works, at all, is if the men have the absolute allegiance and trust of their leaders.....THEN, you DON"T have to question whether the war is 'just', because everyone knows it is.

This means that it is vitally important for people who find themselves somewhere they didn't expect, doing things they abhor, TO DISSENT, loudly, and often, not blindly follow their commander into the jaws of oblivion.

There cannot be war without warriors.

Sun-Tzu says in 'The Art of War':

"The art of war is governed by five constant factors"

pre-eminent among these factors, at the top of the list,is this:

The Moral Law

" The moral law causes people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger"


He goes on to state that it is vitally important to victory to have this....otherwise failure is certain.


Right now, people in this country are too sure that they have the moral law backing them....I'm not so sure....when the people begin to pick over the subject, and discuss it, and yes, argue about it, it forces them to examine their positions.

For instance, I know that in the military, you are not allowed to contest your orders.....this means that the troops can't judge for themselves if the 'moral law' is oin their side or not, they MUST TRUST that their generals are wise enough, and benevolent enough, to not wantonly lead them into the wolffs lair.

Yet this is EXACTLY what has been done......for now, we are essentially in the midst of a civil war, which is also a religious war.

We have made a hell of a botched mess of it, and the ONLY WAY OUT is to begin criticizing our leaders, those who led us here, for the wrong reasons.


According to my interpretation of some of his writings, Sun-Tzu says failure over there is a certainty, for numerous reasons.....I predict an eventual return to bygone times here, when people WILL protest, people WILL raise hell in the streets, because the devices that allow them to remain ostriches are slowly being rendered ineffective....for anyone not noticing, gas is nearly 4$ a gallon....everything else is going up, too.....even the sheep will arise from their slumber, not through any anti-war rabble rousing, but through the sheer economic realities of where our shepherds have taken us......I have long said that the people will never revolt and protest as long as the creature comforts keep them oblivious, well, I am seeing things that give me hope.

The time is near, and we are about to have a drastic shift in power here in America, the republicans are on the way out, and we'll see what happens next.
 
There are indeed many protests. They just aren't televized. The media rather concentrate on the latest scandal, be it some meaningless political dribble (as we last saw with that Wright guy), or some hot blonde chick going missing.

But my support is currently with Obama, mainly because of his promise to get the USA out of the war ASAP.
 
It is a great idea indeed to withdraw the troops ASAP, BUT what the hell do you think is going to happen in Iraq?

Do you think the population of Iraq will get itself back on track, just like that? The war was a big mistake, but immediate withdrawal won't make it any better. By starting the war, America gave itself the responsibillity to rebuild Iraq.

(I know that American troops aren't doing any good over there now, nothing besides breeding more hatred against the western world, in those who have suffered from the consequences of ruthless american politics.)

Obama is an ostriche as well!(better than clinton though)

First you take responsibillity to help Iraq, by dethroning the ever so evil Hussein, then you just leave?? Obama, in my opinion, just says he wants the troops back, because a lot of americans have had enough of casualties among relatives or friends, and Obama's knows that. Not that every american who wants the troops withdrawn has relatives or friends in the army, but the rest of them just don't see the point anymore, critical thinkers as they are. "we went there to get rid of Hussein, well he's gone, mission accomplished"

I believe Iraq needs assistance in ridding itself of chaos and disorder, and establishing a decent government. I don't know how, or what kind of assistance, but just abadoning right now seems like a stupid thing to do.

Peace.
 
It is now reminiscent of Viet Nam, in that we are caught up in a civil war, which has understones of a religious war......


Do we have the 'right' to force democracy down their throats?

I don't think we do....


Lets cut through all the bullshit here, if we had spent any effort developing realistic, workable forms of alternative energy all these years the scientists have been telling us to, instead of electing OIL MEN as presidents, we would never have had the economic imperative to be there in the first place....when Saddam invaded Kuwait, we could have said 'so fucking what?'....instead of freaking out and amassing a military response.....

By now, everyone should know where Saddam came from, the Bushes....

The REALITY is that we, the citizenry, have idly stood by for many years as our government fomented revolution in other countries, meddling in their internal affairs and corrupting their right to self-determination....history is chock full of CIA machinations against soveriegn governments....We ourselves would probably nuke a country we caught doing the same to us.

Our collective ego is monstrous.


Anyone who knows anything about Moslem culture should realize we are LIVING A FANTASY to think that we'll be able to dominate them into democracy, it-just-won't-work.


At some point, abstractions must be abandoned in the name of humanity.
 
I think this is an extremely interesting topic you are talking about.

You were talking about the question, why someone actually goes to war and 'sacrifices' himself resp. just goes to certain or at least presumable death.

Here, the codeword ist AUTHORITY. This is a grand topic and I am going to write a dissertation (not the right word but right meaning) about it. Authority is when a person lets another person decide for itself, when it lets the other person go in a higher position then itself. Such phenomena are actually very common, e.g. when you are talking about parents. There is a lot of phylosophical and psychological talk about why e.g. during WW I in the battle of Verdun, people went to certain death.

I think that this example also fits to the US soldiers that went to war.

Another effect is what I will call the effect of the MASSES. Remember 1984, in the hour of hate (or what was it called...?), when even Winston, who doesn't think the way the others do loses his temper and starts screaming and hating, too? THat's what I'm talking about. If everyone or at least officially is for something, there is a chance to get infected, too, even when you have a strong character (interesting phenomena btw) but rather when your ethic fundaments are weak.

The last effect I want to mention is NATIONALITY resp. nationalism. What I mean is that a lot of people fight for their country. Nationalism can be something beautiful, I mean when you feel that your neighbour is your brother e.g., when a whole nation is in brotherhood (taking: USSR,DDR...) but what gets very dangerous when you are talkign about hatred towards other nationalities and manipulation using the reason of nationality (the president said: go and fight for your country...) etc.

PS: I'm really sad that my English is so weak, I just lack of vocab :?
 
I didn't say there should be democracy, as I myself am against forcing every country to become democrats. But will just leaving them without any financial support, aid them in getting things running again?

I think the least thing America could do is give some financial support, though that is idealistic and Iraqis would probably burn American money.

Really the solution to the problem created here isn't simple at all, but when all the troops are gone, terrorist or extremist are probably the ones who'll be holding the reins. And the very foundation of the new country created will be extremist muslim and anti-western(anti-USA mainly) tenets.

I just don't see infuriated Iraqis, most of them probably homeless, sorting this out by themselves, and they shouldn't have to. They weren't the ones who created this mess, and I know Iraq wasn't great before but better than this.

I heard something about Disney planning to create another theme park over there in Baghdad, maybe that will help :lol:

Peace

Edit: this would mean the government of the USA needs to admit their mistakes, which will not happen, ever. [hence idealistic]
 
I read carefully what you wrote.

But we have a conflict of interest in your scenario.

We are unable to act in Iraq's best interest, because we don't know what it is.

We confuse OUR best interest with theirs.


Our ego is in the way, and the reason why is because we have been carefully, ruthlessly conditioned to be FOLLOWERS, not self-sufficient free-thinkers.

Whether you think Iraq needs democracy or not is irrelevant, because thats the only game we know....we can't do anything for them except exploit them....it's in our conscious and subconscious....some would say our genetics, even.

We cannot say we are 'for' freedom, when we can't walk the walk.

Our leaders do not take the time to try to understand the enemy, because it woud dictate a different approach. This is what's really at the heart of the problem.


What can we do?

Take a FUCKING LESSON FROM THIS, and get off our asses and not allow our government to meddle in the internal affairs of soveriegn nations.

Our apathy is what allowed the republicans to create Saddam....and there is no argument anyone here can put up against that statement, we DID create him, out of whole cloth.

Trusting our leaders too much, when they have shown what they do with that trust, means that not only is the military at fault for not questioning authority, but the population is too....from where does the military draw its members?

The population. Young males, preferably fresh out of high school, and from rural countrified areas....that's because they tend to be idealistic, unintellectual, and conditioned by television into having dunder-headed ideas about what bravery 'is'.

They are generally culture-bound, and simplistic...a carbon-based lump of teen-aged clay, ready to be shaped and detonated.


It's all our faults.
 
Point taken, but still can we just abandon them in all the misery there is to come? Knowing who's fault it is that there in that situation, knowing we(other countries) stood on the sideline just watching it happen, doing nada to keep america from there self-centered actions of avariciousness?

I know we cannot accomplish anything there, and the best thing is to abandon the situation. As it will solely worsen... But the right thing definately would be to give them some support, how? god knows...

But if Obama was truly anti-war, he wouldn't have just said 'retreat', he would've said we need to help them get their own feet back on solid ground. Because whatever he says, only a little, if not nothing of election candidates promises will be solidified. Thus he can make idealist promises, and the idealistic solution in my opinion is that Iraq is to re-establish on america's costs.

Peace.
 
Getting out would be taken as, I think, a gesture of goodwiill, and good faith, by them. Remember, as long as we are an occupying force, none of the various factions want anything to do with us.

Someone has to blink first in this staredown.

We are at a stalemate, and it's more of a war of attrition now, than any clear objectives....thats another thing, there are no clear objectives there.

'Peace and stability' sound nice, but how have they had those things in the past?

The biggest dog.

We cannot be that dog, even though we're the biggest.


I assure you, based on the lessons of history, that our CIA is doing everything in its power to cultivate a relationship with the most vicious warlord/local gangster they can find, in the hopes of returning to the past.

Their imagination is very limited, it's all they really know.
 
I only have a brief moment to comment on this subject for now

I would only say try to take care to recall where YOUR mindset/maturity level was at 17-18, when the majority of soldiers are recruited. They're likely just trying to find a jumpstart to their lives rather than continuing to work at Dairy Queen. I really don't think too many are excited about the prospect of going to Iraq.

Look at the hooks army commercials use to bait potential recruits - HUGE sign-on bonuses (upwards of $40,000) free college, stable income, marketable job skills

This is not indicative of people lining up outside the recruiting stations with the desire to "defend their county from terrorism"

This is just young kids, tired of not having a car, money, real job or SOME sort of direction in their life.

ALSO, only a small percentage of soldiers in Iraq actually leave outside the gate, most of them just sit around a FOB in support roles, and never hear a shot fired. Of course, they won't be telling all their friends that's what they did during their deployment when they get back
 
you know, I agree....talking with Rymmen reminded me when I WAS much younger, I used to be as big a hoodlum as there was, and I eventually was graced with life-saving change....sometimes I get SUPERSUPERSUPER angry, and I may temporarily lose track of that....


Even so, if teens get to the age of majority without knowing the truth about our government, and our system, then the real failure is in the parents , and the culture, and the educational system....

My teenager has told me that it seems school could be condensed to about 3 hours a day and they could learn everything that they are learning in 7...

I said, 'yes, if the purpose of school was to actually educate, then this would have been done a long time ago'

(teen) then what 'is' the purpose of school, if not to educate?

(me) to get you ready for eight hour days of numbing office drudgery

Conditioning is the real point of our so-called 'educational system'

Allowing the economics of our culture to determine the values and decide what information is pertinent goes to the heart of the problem.

By this I mean that we teach, most of us UNCONSCIOUSLY, our children that 'greed is king', and then we wonder why they are so fucked up.

When you buy into capitalism, really buy into it, not just functuion within it, then you are guilty of the biggest sin, which is the love of money.

Not the realization that it is necessary, but worshipping it as an idol, as an ideal.

There are very few passages that I agree with in the bible, but this one is dead on;

'The love of money is the root of all evil'

It doesn't take religion to teach this, all it takes is some rudimentary observational powers.

As such, we are enslaved by the petrochemical industry, which is WHY we have a 'national interest' in going to war in the mideast.

We are handled, and emotionally manipulated with nationalism, and 'patriotism'.

These fuckers have come into the schools with 'recruiting drives'....I have had to be restrained from going down there a few times and confronting these army recruiters head on, openly challenging their intelligence and motivations.

Since I live in an area of serious rednecks, I would probably open myself to some serious consequences by doing so, and I allowed myself to be telked out of it, mostly for the sake of my teen child......I have directed him/her to avoid these recruiters at all costs, to never engage in converstaion with them, because all they are is salesmen, con-men trying to fill quotas to send off to war.....I have successfully talked a couple out of joining, but I do not feel I'm doing enough.

I am fucking pissed off about this....people are so easily misled, I have conclude, because of the press allowing the government a lot of leeway....
in e-mails to various TV stations accusing them directly of this, and challenging them to respond, the best reply I got was that the 'strive to report the news in an impartial way'

The GODDAMN FUNCTION OF THE PRESS IS TO CHECK THE GOVERNMENT.
Not sell diapers.

Fuck me running, no one seems to understand the most basic of things here.



















































 
I actually do think that most soldiers sent to Iraq are happy to be there, protecting their precious USA. YES, they are seduced into doing so, by big bonuses and whatever, but as soon as they start their career in the army they are brainwashed into blind chauvinism. Just like a lot of regular americans, but then instead of army officers manipulating them, the press does that.

It's incredible how un-fucking-believably patriotic Americans can be. I visited Kennedy space centre a week ago, where some NASA dude exclaimed that America is still the best of the best, and the furthest in technological development. They land one fucking rocket on the moon, and suddenly they're the leaders of the world.

When you hear a redneck rant about how great America is Spice, be sure to remind him that the REAL americans are the Native Americans.

No offense to all 'thinking' americans though :roll:

Peace.

Edit: If one was to see the Shamu show at Seaworld, Orlando, which btw is hardcore animal-abuse. It would probably start out with a dramatic salute to all folks who were in the army, or have relatives in the army. All these people are asked to stand up and they get a huge round of applause, which is repugnant. I did not clap my hands thinking of the innocent Iraqis being bombed by cocky college-drop-out braindead gun-loving soldiers.
 
spice a dit:
Even so, if teens get to the age of majority without knowing the truth about our government, and our system, then the real failure is in the parents , and the culture, and the educational system....

Exactly.
 
Thats right, Verus Deus....the indians are the real americans....I would never even mention it, were this not the proper context, but I have 25% Chickasaw/ Choctaw indian in my bloodline as well....I know all about the 'Trail of Tears'...

Then and Now.
 
Close to 50.,...

my grandfather used to tell me stories about a lot of things...we say he was 'full Indian'....but if not fullblood, then very close, like 90+%....his parents were
for sure full blooded, one chickasaw from mississippi, and one choctaw, from Oklahoma, if I'm not mistaken.....

I remember being told a lot of messed up things....but this was before they passed, when I was very young.....

My point is, I have a lot of reasons to hate what this country has become, whether it was what was done to my ancestors, who had more right to be here than any Cheney or Bush predecessors, or the way they poisoned my father, who worked for various government agencies, and was in Viet Nam and Korea....

There's more, too...but I won't bore you with the details...
 
=/ Damn, I'm really, really fucking young. Peacing it, gonna go swim some.
 
Wow didn't expect that! A bit off-topic but I have a book called: Spirit and Reason by The Vine deloria. I was wondering if you've ever read it, it's about your forefathers and what they believed. It's a great book, very inspiring!

Peace.
 
Retour
Haut