'Attacking a Sacred Cow' (my manifesto on the military)

[spice]

I have heard enough. The other day, eating in a restaraunt, I overheard this comment:

" If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them"


I wanted to throw my plate at him.


How dare anyone assert that a person who doesn't agree with the war effort is unAmerican? Do they not understand that dissent IS WHAT CREATED THE CONSTITUTION?

I have thought on this subject a lot, and I am about to advance a train of thought that is absolutely taboo here in this country.

No, I don't 'support the troops'.

The fact that a mindless army of drones exist for the president to immediately send into battle, any battle, makes the abuse of power a likely thing.

Recruits are taught to turn off their critical thinking faculties ( which is why the military prefers youngsters straight out of high school ) and OBEY, no matter what.

This is why it is vital that the commander-in-cheif be IN TOUCH with the will of the common man, and why the 'common man' needs to be more than an ignorant, beer-guzzling automaton.

So, I lay down the gauntlet, again, and I ACCUSE THE MILITARY OF AIDING AND ABETTING crimes against humanity. I point my finger at all the Generals,
the corporals, the privates, the chaplains, the cooks, the medics....

You're ALL GUILTY OF TREASON, and high crimes against the human race, for blindly, gleefully killing people in the name of the government, an out-of-touch
government consisting of big-bellied, suit-wearing, WARPIGS who hide behind
politics and twisted, mis-spun words.

You're ALL GUILTY, for turning off your brains and allowing yourselves to be manipulated conceptually by your masters, men who don't know what honor is, who don't know what bravery is, who don't respect life or liberty, xenophobes who think that the 'filthy brown infidels' don't have the right to co-exist peacefully on the planet.

I'm old enough to REMEMBER where Saddam came from, to REMEMBER where
Osama came from. YOUR MASTER, GI-JOE, the reverend George W. Bush's
family CREATED BOTH OF THEM from local bully-boys to fight clandestine, unapproved wars against so-called 'enemies'.....it is lost on you ignorant motherfuckers ( I refer here to the robots, of course) that Congress is who declares war, not the president, congree is who funds the war, not the president....he was not supposed to be the ultimate authority in these scenarios, but you THUGS, with your rredneckery, and your love of guns and carnage ALOOW HIM TO COMMIT HIGH CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY by
being the subservientassasins that you are.

The real winners, the real beneficiaries of your mass-murdering practices are the Bushes, the royal house of Saud, and Exxon.

How can you be so blind?

So STUPID?

I LONG FOR a return to the sixties, when the troops themselves will have to endure the hatred of the citizenry, when peoiple willingly, energetically lay the blame where it belongs on the WARPIGS AND THEIR ROBOT-MURDERERS.

When you have to look people in the eye who see you for what you are, and aren't afraid to call a spade a spade.

Or a murdering thug, a murdering thug.

 

[Forkbender]

Amen.

 

[Rymmen]

That's a generalization, I feel.

 

[spice]

How so, rymmen?...elaborate.

 

[Rymmen]

Well, if you were being shot at from left and right by people you cannot see, even though you might have grown a great moral appreciation for life, wouldn't you shoot back at those who seem to be threatening you?

Wouldn't you want to try and protect your peace-loving family and friends from a perceived, heartless danger?

EDIT: Anyway, I think that some of the people in the military joined for just reasons, and just got caught in the web of lies and violence that is war. I mean, I've read more than once about polls that say that soldiers generally disagree with the war in Iraq.

 

[spice]

As I thought, you are completely missing the point.

That statement cannot apply to me.

I posess something called 'critical thinking'....I think for MYSELF....and my thinking is grounded, grounded, I say...

In the love of my fellow man, not in what comes from the barrel of a gun.

Re-read my post.

 

[Rymmen]

And what I'm saying is that, when you're being fired upon, you do indeed lose those critical thinking skills. I'd wager that all of us do. Or would do you really think that you'd let yourself be killed rather than kill? I am remembered of you saying something about being trained to fight near the Mexican border in a thread here in psychonaut, or something.

Hell, you can look at how the Germans enlisted people from nations that they invaded. These people likely despised Germany, but when the Russians came rolling in, they stopped caring about their allegiances and the bigger picture and tried to defend themselves from being slaughtered.

People change. Someone that might have joined the military a good man simply wanting to take advantage of the benefits in the military might have simply been deployed and would then have no way out other than to wait. Someone might have joined the military being a heavily xenophobic, vengeful prick, and then evolved a higher morality while still being deployed.

 

[spice]

Point taken.


But how do you ever put it out of your mind when joining these days, that it is a foregone conclusion that you'll end up getting shot at, be it in Afghanistan, Iraq, or somewhere else?

Surely there are no ostriches that are in this space mentally?

Again, * I * wouldn't end up there in the first place.....I think for myself, I do not allow Sgt. Howitzer to do it for me.

Also, your analogy about Germany doesn't really apply here....this country has not been invaded,.

We still do not know what happened on 9/11/2001.....we know what we are TOLD, and some of these sheep here believe every word, all the while exhibiting zero questioning of the supposed facts.

In the context of our modern society, under neo-con rule, how could yopu join the military for noble purposes? Surely you know you'll end up shooting at civilians in some Islamic country?


...and, if people change, I'm not seeing any evidence of it in any military-minded individuals sharing their ideas and attitudes with the press, and the rest of us. I see a bunch of gung-ho jarheads who KNOW we're in the right, who have never took a few hours to learn the history of the 80's decade, which was the incubation era for all the evils the neo-cons are wreaking on my, and YOUR world today.

My point is that at some point, it becomes more than a case of 'let the politicians figure it out'...it becomes...


'Lets stand up for what's right'.

 

[robhR]

I totally agree. There's a sick mindset down there, even a lot of the so called democrats seem to be completely blind to all this horrifying shit happening around them. They're focused only on what's happening right now. If you tell them what has lead up to right now has been nothing but lies and propaganda and that this should be very clear if you practice thinking logically the response is usually something along the lines of "God bless America, fuck those towel heads". I know that's pretty general and not really about the military, but bare with me.

How. How does it happen? What does it take for people to be aware that the reason the government had for going into Iraq was a LIE, a blatant fucking stone faced lie, and yet they're still there, they just don't talk about the WMDs anymore, but not be totally fucking outraged and revolt already? When your freedoms are being stripped away from you one by one, your hard earned tax money is lining the pockets of rich old men and being used to kill innocent people, and all this is being done under the guise of righteousness, hell, it's being done under the guise of preserving your freedom, and you don't give this a second thought, you have a serious fucking psychological problem. I ask these questions hypothetically of course, because I know what it takes, I know how it happens. It takes a charmingly stupid president that you feel you can relate to, it takes nationalism to be at the front of your psyche, it takes a blind belief that your system is working and has always worked, it takes the suppression of critical thinking, and it takes mental fucking illness.

I'm scared. I'm very scared that it's possible to convince so many people that this thing is right, but of course I knew it already. I see this sort of behavior in people who live in countries ruled by dictators, I just always assumed that the U.S. is a little more enlightened and has enough information to see past this shit. But clearly it isn't information that's important, it's mindset. If people can be told that all of this is a lie and the people can respond with "thank god we live in a country where all you crazy people are free to say whatever crazy thing you want" you have something a lot more powerful than a dictatorship, you have sheep who think they're shepherds.

I think Bush is a fucking psychopath who's just playing dumb because he knows you don't get to people's hearts by being strong, you get there by being weak. I'm going a little off topic here though, that's a different rant...

What kind of hatred has to exist in these people? And they pretend it's love. They pretend their wonderful government is freeing the poor Iraqis, but it's the same people who think this that will say things like "God bless America, fuck those towel heads". They're not thinking, they're just observing and cheering. This is a little different from Vietnam (only a little though, 'cause people in 'nam could have draft dodged), all the soldiers in Iraq joined the military voluntarily. Even if they didn't think they would wind up in Iraq, they still thought that this great big death machine is an okay organization to work for. So fuck the troops, I don't support them either.

When you're the most powerful nation in the world, what's your military for? It's not for defending yourself, it's for control.

The troops and the people who support them have this backward, contradictory, fucked up mindset imposed in them by the government and the culture (it's pretty much one and the same when you live in such a nationalist country) and the government then utilizes these drones to control the world while they still can.

 

[Rymmen]

Point taken.


But how do you ever put it out of your mind when joining these days, that it is a foregone conclusion that you'll end up getting shot at, be it in Afghanistan, Iraq, or somewhere else?

I know my cousin got out of doing dangerous missions while still serving his year in Iraq by being a calibration technician. Some people manage to get that sort of gig, some don't.

Surely there are no ostriches that are in this space mentally?

Again, * I * wouldn't end up there in the first place.....I think for myself, I do not allow Sgt. Howitzer to do it for me.

This is a different argument, but whatever:

What makes you so sure that your perception is the correct one? What if you were convinced some way or another that the government was telling the truth, that Iraq was ready to hurt innocents with WMDs? Or, as of now, that fighting in Iraq is keeping the world safe from terrorism?

If that were your perception, could you understand why someone would choose to join the military and fight what they thought was the good fight? I find it hard to believe that hatred is the main driving force behind most of the people in the US military.

Also, your analogy about Germany doesn't really apply here....this country has not been invaded,.

The analogy had to do with people disagreeing with their leadership yet still finding themselves fighting for their lives.

We still do not know what happened on 9/11/2001.....we know what we are TOLD, and some of these sheep here believe every word, all the while exhibiting zero questioning of the supposed facts.

There could be a Pascalesque wager going on in the people's heads, though. They would not be willing to wait and find out if the terrorists really are out to get them by waiting for another terrorist attack.

In the context of our modern society, under neo-con rule, how could yopu join the military for noble purposes? Surely you know you'll end up shooting at civilians in some Islamic country?

It all depends on your perception.

...and, if people change, I'm not seeing any evidence of it in any military-minded individuals sharing their ideas and attitudes with the press, and the rest of us. I see a bunch of gung-ho jarheads who KNOW we're in the right, who have never took a few hours to learn the history of the 80's decade, which was the incubation era for all the evils the neo-cons are wreaking on my, and YOUR world today.

Agreed. The world would be better off with them being educated. But I'm willing to wager that mocking them is only going to drive them away, and give the neo-con's more ammo to pump through the media to get the public energized against the anti-war movement.

My point is that at some point, it becomes more than a case of 'let the politicians figure it out'...it becomes...


'Lets stand up for what's right'.

I agree. But the blame, I believe, should be assigned for those who intended blood for unjust reasons, not those who believed that they were fighting for just reasons.

 

[spice]

Rymmen, I'm sorry you feel the need to defend the military.


It's not your fault.


If they believed they were fighting for just reasons, then they're IGNORANT of the facts.....which is where I derive the certainty that my perspective IS INDEED the correct one.

The facts, Rymmen, SHOW that Bush lied about WMD in Iraq....not my opinion, facts.

The facts,Rymmen, show that the Bushes CREATED SADDAM in the first place.
Not my opinion, facts.

The facts are that Bush cant oppress anyone without mindless drones that blindly follow orders, again.... facts.

Apparently you are pretty closely connected to some military people.....I feel sorry for anyone who has to deal with being used and manipulated as much as they do.

Send my condolences.


Are you much of a student of history?

You might want to check out the root causes of these'conflicts'....you'll find that my actual position, relative to THE FACTS, is quite a strong one,which I have no problem defending.....because I have truth on my side.

Yuou can defend the military all you like, but the best defense you've been able to muster is along the lines of 'but if you believed'...


Man, thats the whole point......they need to grow a brain, and some sense.


Anyone with a 3 millimeter attention span COULD choose to learn and retain all the actual bases for this bullshit 'war effort' but see, I realize that many are comfortable living in illusion.

Being ignorant is the best defense you can muster for them?

Again, I'm sorry you feel the need to justify oppression and murder.

Your bad.

 

[Psychoid]

well in fact I believe he is defending innocents who join the military by ignorance and not the military itself... am I right?

 

[spice]

Ignorance is the devils left hand.


It costs ZERO to become 'un-ignorant'

 

[Rymmen]

Rymmen, I'm sorry you feel the need to defend the military.


It's not your fault.


If they believed they were fighting for just reasons, then they're IGNORANT of the facts.....which is where I derive the certainty that my perspective IS INDEED the correct one.

The facts, Rymmen, SHOW that Bush lied about WMD in Iraq....not my opinion, facts.

Intelligence agencies at the time said that they were there.

(Which brings up a question that I've had since the beginning of the war. Why the fuck would you attack a nation with WMD? Isn't that exactly what teh WMD is there to prevent?)

The facts,Rymmen, show that the Bushes CREATED SADDAM in the first place.
Not my opinion, facts.

Which then fought a war against the US before this one. Relations hadn't been good for some time before the war in Iraq.

The facts are that Bush cant oppress anyone without mindless drones that blindly follow orders, again.... facts.

Then how is it, in your mind, considering Bush a power-hungry, powerful oppressor with an army of mindless drones, that the US still isn't under martial law?

These people are guilty of living in a human world of Us and Them. These people feel the need to protect their Us from the evil Them. Their reasons are just, but misdirected.

Just as I consider your reasoning against your Them (the military) to be divisive and destructive, but I don't blame you for it. I just argue for empathy, on all fronts.

Apparently you are pretty closely connected to some military people.....I feel sorry for anyone who has to deal with being used and manipulated as much as they do.

Send my condolences.

I've already told them that I think they're being ignorant for joining the fight.

Are you much of a student of history?

You might want to check out the root causes of these'conflicts'....you'll find that my actual position, relative to THE FACTS, is quite a strong one,which I have no problem defending.....because I have truth on my side.

The facts are always up for different interpretation. I can by-and-large argue any which way I want. Here I just attempt to show you how they reason, so as you can see that these aren't always evil or mindless people. The ones that are not are just caught up in being human.

Yuou can defend the military all you like, but the best defense you've been able to muster is along the lines of 'but if you believed'...


Man, thats the whole point......they need to grow a brain, and some sense.

They will tell you the same thing. They will tell you that islamic extremists (they'll probably say terrorists, but I'm trying to ween myself off the word), as they did in the London bombing, as they did in Spain, as they did in New York, as they do in Iraq, as they did in Bali, as they do in Afghanistan, will simply continue their reign of an iron fist in the Middle East, as you can see with the facts of the other countries in the area, if we do not push for victory... which is true. It's a matter of perspective.

What I'm saying is that there are humanistic arguments for the war in Iraq. I myself think that the humanistic arguments against outweigh the ones for. Other people disagree, and some do indeed have a valid opinion on it... just as I think that your viewpoint is valid.

Anyone with a 3 millimeter attention span COULD choose to learn and retain all the actual bases for this bullshit 'war effort' but see, I realize that many are comfortable living in illusion.

Being ignorant is the best defense you can muster for them?

Again, I'm sorry you feel the need to justify oppression and murder.

Your bad.

Indeed. I hate trying to think like these people.

 

[Rymmen]

well in fact I believe he is defending innocents who join the military by ignorance and not the military itself... am I right?

In part. But not all of those that I am defending are entirely ignorant, they just opt to stand one one side of the fence than ours because they perceive the arguments from theirs are more justifiable. They truly believe that the war in Iraq is going to make the world a better place, most only for their countrymen, which I find disdainful, but some for the world, and they do have some backing evidence to suggest so.

In whichever case, I just can't find it in me to convict them as a group of being entirely evil. Just 'misguided'... I want to say stupid, but I don't feel it encompasses them well.

EDIT: I guess you could clump those people that fundament their beliefs in a way which I disagree with 'ignorant', though.

 

[Rymmen]

Ignorance is the devils left hand.


It costs ZERO to become 'un-ignorant'

They're more sophomoric than ignorant, man. Only we can show them the error of their beliefs. And we aren't going to be doing so by hating on them.

 

[spice]

some good arguing there, I'll give credfit where its due.....


but they should shoulder some of the blame.....in real, day-to-day life, we are all held accountablle for our actions, to some degree.


They should not be shielded from justified criticism, and even though we disagree on the extent, I believe you understand that.


I understand that they aren't all evil, but I would like them to question the orders they are given to some degree.....history may not be as kind to them as you are being.

 

[Rymmen]

some good arguing there, I'll give credfit where its due.....


but they should shoulder some of the blame.....in real, day-to-day life, we are all held accountablle for our actions, to some degree.

I think that the fact that they've had to see humanity at its worst is enough for those that aren't sociopaths. But, by all means, those that enjoyed the slaughter of 'towel heads' deserve conviction for murder.

They should not be shielded from justified criticism, and even though we disagree on the extent, I believe you understand that.

Of course.

I understand that they aren't all evil, but I would like them to question the orders they are given to some degree.....history may not be as kind to them as you are being.

Me too.

 

[Pariah]

Dispite the fact that I'm not a big fan of confrontation, even heated discussion, I just want to say I'm glad I've found people actually willing and interested in talking about these things.

All to often people are apathetic where I've lived, concerning the things that really affect people:

Just a few weeks ago there was a strike at one of the main oil refineries (coincidentally, the one I lived and worked next to for 2 years), I happened to see it on the news while at a uni friends flat, that is before the multiple calls for another program - hollyoaks was on! (a soap opera). For me that pretty much outlined the state of mind of so many - here are a group of students - supposedly the most idealist, activist age group, at a relatively high ranking university, and they want to find out who's cheating on who in a fictional town more than find out that crude oil is at its highest price ever, the same day that an oil company releases record profits.

I think the same goes for the neocon crusades - the vast majority don't seem to care that there were no WMD's, that ocuppying another country and turning it into a warzone will just breed the very hatred for the west that they're supposed to be fighting.

For a long time I've been wondering:

How do you break the apathy? can we?

I still haven't come up with an idea..



Pariah

 

[Forkbender]

How do you break the apathy?

Good question.

I guess by showing people that their lives are heavily influenced by external forces and that they behave like sheep. But I must warn that people generally would like to keep the terror they know instead of aspire to a state of freedom and collateral uncertainty.