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Determinism.

IJesusChrist

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First, your comments...

Then mine.

(I believe this to be the deepest scientifical and philosophical topic)
 

Crimzen

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I think you should clarify the definition of determinism
 

IJesusChrist

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It should just have one definition.

Determinism; There are no random events. All events are preceeded by events that foretell future consequences. There are no probabilities, just yes & no.

The big bang, all of the information it held within the first 5 seconds, is sufficient to model the "end" of the universe - meaning the beginning foretold the only end; there is only one path the universe can take.
 

ararat

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determinism is too much of an unwieldy subject for my taste, I didn't/don't think much about it. now that I did, all thoughts broke down after a few moments of reflecting them because it doesn't make any sense. of what use would a block universe be if there wasn't room for conscious play? - ok, that is applying human terms onto something nonhuman, I see why these thoughts don't make sense. - but, is the universe nonhuman? humans sure aren't nonuniverse.


whatever. it is one of my basic beliefs that you can't find truth in words or concepts. either you directly feel and see it, or you don't. I have bright moments in which I feel empowered, free; and I have moments in which I sense that I'm being carried along, these are my not-so-bright moments. doesn't really matter probably. neither free will nor determinism really appeal to me as an answer.
 

morethanasphere

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As to the question of predestination or free-will, determinism and its opposite, I have a one word answer: amalgam. I think it, everything, is an amalgam of destiny and free-will. I think, no, I know through personal experience, that destiny can be altered by free-will.

And we all know where free-will came from, right? It was a gift.
 

IJesusChrist

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@Banana, I liked that response. I think not caring about the subject is probably best.
@Morethanasphere, ... You can't "know" if you have freewill.
 

Crimzen

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all words should have one meaning, i just find that in these kinds of discussions its best to make sure everyones on the same page as to the definition of the discussion

i've not given the subject enough thought myself though i have given it some
i try not to 'believe' in any theory but rather think of it as non-permanent truth (until you find another more fitting theory)
but yes i generally think that there is only one way anything can be in this dimension and that is the way it is
otherwise it would be different.
because everything follows particular rules/laws then surely theres only one way things could ever be

in saying this i also semi-believe in free will, though it could easily be just how out mind works, it needs to think it can make a 'change' or else it wont

i honestly dont know
and neither do you, nothing is absolute
 

BrainEater

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everything and nothing are absolutes and work together as such, as well...

determinism is the accumulation of free-will-quanta and the realization of their potential. the ratio between the determinism and the free-will "determines" the level of determination that can or could be applied. by that we declare determinism to be a mental, emotional or physical attitude. that of course also includes it to possibly be a philosophy. i think it may make a difference of how deeply you might want to root such a attitude in your inner self, which is in human terms probably the only true place where concepts as deep as this could be rooted. it's also a concept which harnesses the power of the inner self, which makes it quite powerful. however like all powerful "tools" it can be used for good things and for bad things, hence its application should essentially be made with sufficient degrees of attention.

your mind is a unfathomably powerful tool by itself and it gives you the possibility to explore the opposite of every concept, as well. in this case the (absolute) opposite from my perspective would be the inability to make decisions at all.

so, obviously the problem lies within choice. what would be different if you had a choice?? what wold be different if you had no choice?? i guess we might define this problem to be a problem, which might be solved on the level where it was created, which is of course consciousness. to draw the line there, figuratively, the same goes for determinism. you can only solve it, by being it, effectively.

because if you don't make the decision, who else makes it? you wanna make your feeling of well-being or other feelings dependant on such generally open questions or generally on other people? why build a prison for your mind because of that? why not instead be the determinism as long as you haven't achieved what you want to achieve? and for it to be effective in reverse as well design a thought mechanism that lets you feel good and happy even if you haven't achieved it.

regarding the universe in relation to that, i think determinism makes a difference to the amount of universes possibly to be perceived or the amount of certain elements perceived within a fixed amount of universes and alternatively the ratio of difference (you might call that change, too) perceived in relation to the omniverse.

sorry, just noticed my comment didn't strictly stick to your definition. anyways i'll just finish it and please don't stone me for that. :D
so, eventually i think there is no random at all. it's just a word for our minds to handle information from which the origin, path or destination isn't entirely clear. because essentially in its basics, everything is information, except from nothing of course which is no-thing... but you might, if you want, define different degrees of random-ness... :mrgreen:


peace
 

IJesusChrist

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I like all the responses so far.

My view on determinism is one of "It makes sense, for the most part."

It seems to me that science is the means to end all debates, you can solve any problem and predict any outcome, or should be able to eventually. There are things in our universe however that seem to be random; radioactive decay. I, personally, think there is a mechanism behind this, but if there is not, and if the decay is truly 'random', then life as I see it changes.

People think of free-will as opposite of determinism, but it is not. You make decisions that are based on something you previously went through, an experience, or you use logic to come to your conclusions, therefore your 'will' is not in any way seperate from your past. I think it becomes obvious that free-will and determinism are no seperate, and that "free-will" is simply determinism.

In order to not be deterministic, the mechanism in which a choice is to be made will not have any logical basis, will be completely random, or will be based on absolute nothingness.

So, I hope you can all see that free-will will either be random, or it will be deterministic. I'm pretty sure none of you want to argue that logic is random.

So, i used to be stuck in contemplation about the consequences of determinism. We can predict the future, yet this does not change the future - there is a paradox there, a very profound one.

Fuck i gotta go, more latewr.
 

IJesusChrist

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fuck man I've been thinking about this alot. Maybe too much.

I'm trying to prove determinism wrong... It seems like there may be something very deep here, the fact that the universe could be either. Free-will and determinism may coincide, like you said, an amalgam.

Believe one, believe the other, they are the same. There is only one ending, there is only one path, but the path is unpredictable, and governed by more than 1 + 1 = 2

I don't think determism allows for love, and I had previously decided the only reason on is allowed to live, is to love & be loved. God damnit sometimes I forget I'm talking to real people on here. Damn I feel weird right now.
 

morethanasphere

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@Morethanasphere, ... You can't "know" if you have freewill.
Are you actually serious?

Isn't "knowing" having free will?
As not "knowing" and leaving "knowing" to those who "know" is not having free will?

You can't possibly be serious.

You said yourself, your username is a joke.
 

morethanasphere

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Forgive me for not reading further on before posting before.

Not 1 + 1= 2...exactly.

Synergism: 1 + 1 = 3...the sum equals more than the parts.

Free will = 1

Determinism = 1

Amalgam = 3
 

IJesusChrist

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morethanasphere a dit:
@Morethanasphere, ... You can't "know" if you have freewill.
Are you actually serious?

Isn't "knowing" having free will?
As not "knowing" and leaving "knowing" to those who "know" is not having free will?

You can't possibly be serious.

You said yourself, your username is a joke.

err... I am serious. I think you may need to give this a little more thought. We are brought up to believe, through school and parents, that we have free-will. But it is not a necessity at all... In fact free-will goes against all science we know of; neurology, physics, chemistry...

If you do have free-will, what is it? Explain to me your definition of free-will and maybe you'll convince me...
 

morethanasphere

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If you do have free-will, what is it? Explain to me your definition of free-will and maybe you'll convince me...
First off, I don't feel any need to convince you of anything. You can choose to think and believe whatever you want as well as I can. Which brings me to my definition of free-will...choice, the ability to choose. Yes, we are conditioned from birth (nurture). Yes, we have a set of inborn instincts (nature). But because we also have a mind, a mystery we call consciousness or intelligence, which is an integral part of yet somehow separate and apart from our body, we can choose to go against our conditioning (nurture) as well as against our instincts (nature). It's not easy - it's far easier to just not think about it - but it actually can be done. People do it all the time.

I'm not trying to beat you up here, but do you really think you posted what you did through some mechanism other than choice? If so, what?
 

IJesusChrist

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Where does your choice come from? Does it come from your intuition to go against nurture? Your curiosity to go against your nature?

How did you get that curiosity? Randomly or from your nurturing?

Where does your choice come from?

If its not a roll of the dice, than it is based on something.
 

morethanasphere

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That is the ineffable mystery of being, no? Where did what we call intelligence - consciousness - the ability to choose action based on something other than rote learning or biological instinct, come from? When did human beings first gain it? Are we the only creatures on Earth, or anywhere in the universe for that matter, to exhibit it? What exactly is it?

These are all good questions. But they avoid the question you were asked.

Do you think your choice to post what you did was predetermined before you made it, and that you therefore really had no choice?
 

IJesusChrist

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On some days, YES. I believe that time is just a line of events, no reason to see it progressing towards expansion, no reason to see it progressing towards contraction (the big bang). In fact, no reason we can't view ALL of time simultaneously.

I believe (sometimes...) that we just experience the universe, we do not interact. We are experiencers of biology, or life itself, with the illusion of 'free-will'. "I" am watching myself type on the keyboard, "I" see all my actions and choices, I perceive it all, but I am not "MAKING" the coices, they are simply outcomes of an infinitely long past sequence.

It's grim when you first see it, but it's really not that bad.
 
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