Daniel Pinchbeck - the future of psychedelics

[maxfreakout]

In this week's episode of psychonautica, Max Freakout first talks about the documentary about ayahuasca by the Dutch filmmaker Jan Kounen called 'other worlds', and about Dr Kary Mullis and the Nobel Prize he received for pioneering work in molecular biology, which he attributed to insights about molecular structure he gained from tripping on LSD. Next, Max plays the first part of a 2-part talk by Daniel Pinchbeck from the world psychedelic forum called 'the future of psychedelics', in which Pinchbeck talks about the science and technology of indienous cultures and western technologies, quantum physics, the role of psychedelics in the 2012 prophecy, rudolph Steiner and intellectual intuition, psychedelics and separateness from the material world, deconditioning from social constructs, psychedelics and enlightenment, respect for ancestors and dealing with shadow material, Paul Stamets and using mushrooms for bio-remediation, the banking system,money and potential alternative currency systems, alternative social infrastructures, the production of subjectivity, the purpose of life on Earth, the insanity of American pop-culture, Carl Jung and synchronicity, entity contact in the psychedelic experience, the Dutch mushroom ban, gnosticism and shamanism, and the choice to become a visionary.

playlist: Alpha Rhythms - Silicon

DOWNLOAD PSYCHONAUTICA 63 HERE:
http://media.libsyn.com/media/dopecast/ ... ica063.mp3

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In this festive season episode of psychonautica, Max Freakout plays the second part of a 2-part talk by Daniel Pinchbeck from the world psychedelic forum called 'the future of psychedelics'. This is a question and answer session in which Pinchbeck talks about gnosticism and mystery religions, UFOs and crop circles, scepticism and secular materialism, non-human entities encountered in psychedelic trips, the idea of time speeding up towards 2012, Socrates' wisdom and ancient Greek epistemology, the possible input of psychedelic plants to human evolution, the importance of making bold theories and of demanding the impossible, the meaning of the 2012 prophecy, the possibility of major global transformation and deepening awareness, and the idea that time travel might make calenders become obsolete.

playlist: Left coast Liquid - desert dwellers


DOWNLOAD PSYCHONAUTICA 64 HERE:
http://media.libsyn.com/media/dopecast/ ... ica064.mp3

 

[GOD]

To make a karmic balance what about a psychedelic magical mystery ultimate TRUTH edition of psychonautica ............................ = The introduction , then todays theme =............................... just a blank screen with no sound for 10 minutes , then the bye byes and outro ?

 

[maxfreakout]

To make a karmic balance what about a psychedelic magical mystery ultimate TRUTH edition of psychonautica ............................ = The introduction , then todays theme =............................... just a blank screen with no sound for 10 minutes , then the bye byes and outro ?

lol i don't think that would get many listeners

 

[Pariah]

Good stuff, a lot of what was mentioned reminded me of the film waking life, although my own take on the subjects differs somewhat from those talking here.

I'm not trying to be funny here, but when will you run out of psychedelic forum material? I kind of prefered when it was more discussion based (although I appreciate the effort that must be required for those types of podcasts).

maybe I misunderstood, were you saying socrates wasn't a person? haven't heard that one before, please explain.

Without wanting to start up the epistemology debate again (although it is interesting, it has kind of run its course in my eyes), I did wonder about skepticism about skepticism, in that you would also need to be skeptical about skepticism about skepticism and so on... (you get the idea), which is another one of these infinity based problems that eats its self.

Anyway, keep up the good work. :wink:

 

[maxfreakout]

Good stuff, a lot of what was mentioned reminded me of the film waking life, although my own take on the subjects differs somewhat from those talking here.

it's interesting i have had some very mixed responses about the Pinchbeck talks, people either love him or hate him

I'm not trying to be funny here, but when will you run out of psychedelic forum material? I kind of prefered when it was more discussion based (although I appreciate the effort that must be required for those types of podcasts).

ive got a few more to go still but im approaching the end, but yeah these wpf podcasts are so easy compared to the others! some good ones still to come though including more from Stan Grof

maybe I misunderstood, were you saying socrates wasn't a person? haven't heard that one before, please explain.

yes that's exactly what i am saying, contrary to popular belief, Socrates is a fictional character from the mind of Plato, his philosophy is making a political and philosophical statement about the absurdity of state control, as he was put to death for illegally initiating youths outside of official state control

He knew that he didnt know, the only way this is possible, is for him not to exist, there is no 'knower'

Without wanting to start up the epistemology debate again (although it is interesting, it has kind of run its course in my eyes), I did wonder about skepticism about skepticism, in that you would also need to be skeptical about skepticism about skepticism and so on... (you get the idea), which is another one of these infinity based problems that eats its self.

yes that was a very interesting distinction, scepticism on a superficial level meaning just 'secular materialism' or scepticism on a deeper esoteric level meaning the kind of 'wisdom' Socrates was talking about

it eats itself in infinite regress, and hence it doesnt exist in the first place, the regressive sceptical homunculus inside the head of the sceptic

sceptisism about sceptisism about sceptisism, is exactly the same thing as sceptisism about sceptisism

 

[Nomada]

yes that's exactly what i am saying, contrary to popular belief, Socrates is a fictional character from the mind of Plato,...

He is Plato's fictional character, but only to the extent that there is no conclusive evidence of his material existence.

at pariah:

Socrates never wrote anything that we know of. All of what we know about him is through Plato's dialogues and other comments by his greek contemporaries.

 

[Pariah]

I'm not really convinced with the socrates thing - I know he didn't write anything down, but I was taught his personal philosophy was that truth came about from dialogue (and he stubornly stuck to the idea). It seems a bit odd that they made marble busts of a guy who didn't have a face. Socrates was also much more interested in the *practical* philosophy such as ethics, not the metaphysics of plato, which to me atleast suggests he wasn't just Plato's imaginary friend.

Feel free to give me some sources to look up though.

I'm not saying I like pinchbeck as such, just interesting what comes up (you can probably imagine my opinions on such things).

In the truth thread, I think it was restin who suggested reading Godel, Escher, Bach - I've started reading it, and I would suggest it to you as well.

 

[maxfreakout]

I'm not really convinced with the socrates thing - I know he didn't write anything down, but I was taught his personal philosophy was that truth came about from dialogue (and he stubornly stuck to the idea). It seems a bit odd that they made marble busts of a guy who didn't have a face. Socrates was also much more interested in the *practical* philosophy such as ethics, not the metaphysics of plato, which to me atleast suggests he wasn't just Plato's imaginary friend.

*Plato's* personal philosophy was that truth comes through dialogue, not Socrates'

there isnt a single scrap of evidence that Plato's dialogues were based on a real man named Socrates, it is purely an assumption (same as Jesus' existence)

there are marble busts of Zeus, but nobody ever suggests that Zeus was a real person, does that seem odd to you?

Feel free to give me some sources to look up though.

i dont know of any, modern academia is 100% stuck on the literalist interpretation of Plato's dialogue (same with the bible) even though there is absolutely no justification for this interpretation

In the truth thread, I think it was restin who suggested reading Godel, Escher, Bach - I've started reading it, and I would suggest it to you as well.

i totally love Douglas Hofstadter! ive read several of his books, 'Godel escher bach', 'the mind's I' (with Dan Dennet) and 'i am a strange loop', he is one of my favourite authors, everything he says is totally psychedelic

 

[Nomada]

Socrates was also much more interested in the *practical* philosophy such as ethics, not the metaphysics of plato, which to me atleast suggests he wasn't just Plato's imaginary friend.

That they can be thought of as having different constructions doesn't imply they are different persons. It could just mean Plato used Socrates for some positions and not others, for example. Based on that fact, it doesn't suggest anything.

What you have been taught may come, as it often does, assuming that Socrates is in fact a real person. as maxfreakout said, there's isn't a single scrap of [conclusive] evidence.

By this hour of night nonetheless Socrates being a real person or not is completely irrelevant. He is immortal by now, existing as information which has been copied on many hard drives and still proliferates at a ravishing rate.

I'm always amazed at how much Plato, Socrates and Aristotle have influenced history. It's in the language we speak.

i dont know of any, modern academia is 100% stuck on the literalist interpretation of Plato's dialogue (same with the bible) even though there is absolutely no justification for this interpretation

That's not entirely true. I've read some really contradicting works on both these men. Besides, there can't be any literalist interpretation of anything. We always read everything through a cultural apparatus, be that individual or collective. You could approach, by studying a lot, to the authors intention but saying you got there is always a supposition. And this is what some scholars claim that's very wrong.

 

[magickmumu]

yes that's exactly what i am saying, contrary to popular belief, Socrates is a fictional character from the mind of Plato,...

He is Plato's fictional character, but only to the extent that there is no conclusive evidence of his material existence.

at pariah:

Socrates never wrote anything that we know of. All of what we know about him is through Plato's dialogues and other comments by his greek contemporaries.

If socrates is plato's fictional character, he's a good one. I don't believe that he is an true fictional character, but in theory he could be.

 

[maxfreakout]

If socrates is plato's fictional character, he's a good one. I don't believe that he is an true fictional character, but in theory he could be.

what reason is there to believe that Socrates is anything other than fictional?

 

[magickmumu]

He could be a fictional character, but there is no real proof of this.
Until now I keep all options open.

not only Plato but also Aristophanes and Xenophon wrote about Socrates. Is there any hard evidence Socrates was a fictional character?

 

[maxfreakout]

He could be a fictional character, but there is no real proof of this.
Until now I keep all options open.

not only Plato but also Aristophanes and Xenophon wrote about Socrates. Is there any hard evidence Socrates was a fictional character?

There is absolutely zero evidence that Socrates existed

it is impossible to prove that something non-existent, doesnt exist

the onus is entirely on people who think that something/someone DOES exist, to prove that it exists

and it goes against occams's razor to suggest that something exists when there is absolutely no reason, and no evidence to suggest that it does

saying that Socrates existed is little different from saying that the flying spaghetti monster exists

 

[Pariah]

"the onus is entirely on people who think that something/someone DOES exist, to prove that it exists."

Come on max, don't start that nonsense again:

Are you making a claim about the nonexistence of socrates or not?

 

[Nomada]

If socrates is plato's fictional character, he's a good one. I don't believe that he is an true fictional character, but in theory he could be.

Yes he is a good one. You need to remember that Plato was a dramaturg, and really good one as well.

When I say dramaturg I mean it literally: Plato wrote plays. This is why, for example, the dialogues are dialogues and not just direct treatises like Aristotle's.

 

[maxfreakout]

Are you making a claim about the nonexistence of socrates or not?

i am not making a claim, i am just pointing out the fact that the real existence of Socrates is an entirely unfounded assumption, based on no evidence, much like the flying spaghetti monster

we know that Plato existed because we have the books he wrote as evidence, whereas we just *assume* that Socrates existed for no reason

Plato wrote dialogues, Socrates was a character in those dialogues.

i claim that you can understand Plato's dialogues on a deep, psychedelic esoteric level only when you realise that Socrates was only meant to be a character in the dialogues. Whereas if you make the unfounded assumption that Socrates was a real man you will never be able to understand this deeper level to the dialogues. This is also true of the characters in the bible like Jesus and Abraham

 

[Forkbender]

Socrates also appears in other works, not just Plato's. Scientific consensus is right now that most of Plato's earlier dialogues were based on a historical figure called Socrates and the later dialogues are more or less completely thought up by Plato. The evidence is by no means conclusive, but to say that Socrates is just a character, would be the same as to say that the Buddha was a character because there are no written sources directly attributed to them. Fact is that a lot of writers wrote about Socrates and that it wasn't common practice in ancient Greece to call something philosophy if it is based on fictional characters alone.

Wikipedia:
[quote:28st5n4u]The "Socratic Problem"

Forming an accurate picture of the historical Socrates and his philosophical viewpoints is problematic at best. This issue is known as the Socratic problem.

Socrates did not write philosophical texts. The knowledge of the man, his life, and his philosophy is based on writings by his students and contemporaries. Foremost among them is Plato; however, works by Xenophon, Aristotle, and Aristophanes also provide important insights.[4] The difficulty of finding the “real

 

[Forkbender]

At the same time I don't think it matters if Socrates were real or not.

 

[Forkbender]

i claim that you can understand Plato's dialogues on a deep, psychedelic esoteric level only when you realise that Socrates was only meant to be a character in the dialogues. Whereas if you make the unfounded assumption that Socrates was a real man you will never be able to understand this deeper level to the dialogues.

you really have to proof this. What changes when you look at Socrates as just a character instead of a wise man that didn't write things down?

 

[maxfreakout]

i claim that you can understand Plato's dialogues on a deep, psychedelic esoteric level only when you realise that Socrates was only meant to be a character in the dialogues. Whereas if you make the unfounded assumption that Socrates was a real man you will never be able to understand this deeper level to the dialogues.

you really have to proof this. What changes when you look at Socrates as just a character instead of a wise man that didn't write things down?

the philosophy has a different meaning when you understand it not as coming from a real person but rather a fictional character

the main example is that the claim to 'know that i know nothing' is no longer paradoxical, because there is no 'knower' behind the claim

so removing the assumption of Socrates' historicity is a solution to the apparent paradox of knowing that he didnt know anything