freedom of religion vs entheogens

[svandamme]

this is a side track thread from
http://forum.psychonaut.com/showfla...w=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#19626

please bear with me , and have a read through

how about applying existing European law , to get Entheogens, Psychedelic experiences, Shamanic rituals accepted by the European court..?

below i pasted the principles , the ones that apply to the situation
note , it would most likely be impossible to make the case stick if you present it as
"all psychedelics" , since the court would most likely rule in a compromise

if you go for allow all psychedelics based on religion , they would figure that
if you can use any psychedelic, then let's allow the one that poses the least risk

eg , that might be something mild and not popular

the idea is ( and this is Leary's idea , not mine ) to make a petition based on freedom of religion
and do it from a spiritual stand point , with a fixed sacrament, so that anything that prohibits you from using your sacrament, is a form of discrimination. this way , the ruling cannot be a compromise

so practically , to get this rolling , we would need a group of people, or just one ( with enough determination and funds) to start a legal petition based on the sacrament he wants ( for me , that would be LSD ) and why he wants it (entheogism, spiritual connect with inner god, shamanic ritual) and at the same time make clear that this is not about partying, and any form of escapisme

that case would then hopefully work out in favour of the petitioner,
and once that's sorted, it can be use by other groups when they petition for their own sacrament
in a similar , analog fashion

note i take lsd , since it's my favorite, and also because it is the most powerfull one, it's also the most researched one, and the most outlawed one ( outlawed based on in many cases , dubious reasons ) so if that one is "liberated" for spiritual use, then other cases should be even easier

now , i'm not a lawyer, and frankly don't have the funds right now to get one but maybe somebody here knows one
i'de very much like to hear his view on this case.



http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/lex/LexUri ... 00X1218(01):EN:HTML



exerpts of the text

Chapter I

Article 3

Right to the integrity of the person

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his or her physical and mental integrity.



Chapter II

FREEDOMS

Article 6

Right to liberty and security

Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person.


Article 10

Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right includes freedom to change religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or in private, to manifest religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.


Chapter II
EQUALITY

Article 20

Equality before the law

Everyone is equal before the law.

Article 21

Non-discrimination

1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.

2. Within the scope of application of the Treaty establishing the European Community and of the Treaty on European Union, and without prejudice to the special provisions of those Treaties, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited.

Article 22

Cultural, religious and linguistic diversity

The Union shall respect cultural, religious and linguistic diversity.

 

[DrDreez]

I understand your point. But i still think that we are modern enough 2 legalize drugs without taking the freedom of religion path.

 

[Kitiem3000]

Then why aren't they legal yet? Or is this moderness a recent event, do we have to wait another 2/5/10 years before people realise that we are modern?

 

[PsiloFlip]

You can't just invent a religion that uses LSD as a sacrament. Recently, scientology tried to get recognized as a religion in Europe. It was denied. Good, because all these religions are crap anyway.
Nevertheless if you manage to do so count me in. LSD is certainly a benign substance.

 

[svandamme]

not a single country on the planet is modern enough , to allow a small spectrum of drugs to become legal. Even in the Netherlands, so called happy land for people who like all sorts of intoxication , something as simple as cannabis is still 100% illegal. there are no exceptions to this law, no if's or but's or when's... it's simply illegal

Netherlands however is such a weird little nation , that they decided to not change the law, but to change the operating procedures for the police and courts, so they have standing orders , not to prosecute for smaller quantities and this and that ... go figure , talk about hypocritical behaviour...

the law says you can't do it, but the police and judge turn a blind eye even though there are shops that sell and advertise... that's the most modern any country has gotten till date : allowing it just enough to collect taxes from the still illegal business

if you think about it , legally , the state is in on illegal things... most people would call that corruption


psyloflip :
it's not about getting lsd recognised as a religion
any form of organized religion would fail completely as such, since it would probably be a number 1 reason for dismissal ( it's a cult !! get rid of em )

the law explicitely says there is a right to exercise your own religion , it does not state you need to gang up with a bunch , and then organize it and get it recognised.

Leary wrote a little book on it , "invent your own religion"
now , must admit , it's a not a serious book but some ideas, like the one in this thread is very interesting and Europe seems like the best place to try it out..

- has to be for 1 sacrament, to avoid a comprimise
- not in a big group , to avoid label as cult ( solo for this purpose is better)
- all you need to proove , is that this is your own , spiritual belief, your not harming anyone , not even yourself. and this is not something new(people have been tripping for longer the existance of the paper used to write current day laws on, even the greeks tripped on ergot like things, even Plato did in a temple of which the ruins still exist)

 

[svandamme]

-

 

[MushroomTrip]

http://www.pharmacratic-inquisition.com/nontesters/pharmacratic/
Here is an interesting documentary.

 

[iris]

well. The santa daim did it with ayahuasca. So why not try it..

 

[iris]

Netherlands however is such a weird little nation , that they decided to not change the law, but to change the operating procedures for the police and courts, so they have standing orders , not to prosecute for smaller quantities and this and that ... go figure , talk about hypocritical behaviour...


I am from the netherlands, and what you say is trou. But some things are changing. One part of our little country, what layes next to the german borther, is so sick of this law that the mayor is trying to change it. It is all illigal. The selling and buying and growing. But they don't look at the selling and using. But they do look at the growing houses. So The police in this region is only busy with rolling up the growhouses. Destroying the lamps and stuff they need. But how else could they sell it? It is so f*cing double!
So.. I really support this guy. I hope he can make it legal so that the peaple who grow it and make there living out of it, don't have to do it in such a illigal state.

 

[svandamme]

because frankly , i have the attention span of a chipmunk, and my need to go psychedelic is quite low .. completely space out maybe once or twice a year, mostly shrooms which are legal in holland, and lsd, well , i find it to heavy for regular use... eg , i get a batch of blotters, eat em all over a month or 2 , and then i'm fed up with it for a couple of years, it is very mind altering and if you do it to often , you do notice the weirdness, even long time after you haven't taken any...

so for me , it's not worth the hastle, i was just hypothesizing the concept ( most of it came sort of like within a month after a 3-500 ug trip that knocked me off my socks )

Iris if you literally gonna quote something i wrote in a thread, you might consider posting as a quote , not as if you wrote it yourself, get's confusing otherwise

 

[iris]

DrDreez says we're modern enough to legelize drugs. I think that's a weird thought. Becouse i think we're to civeliced (is that modern?) to legelaze it. In far less modern times it was not illigal. But the drugs give you thoughts and understandings what is dangerous for the gouvernment. they just want you to work, go home, watch television and go to sleep. They don't want you to take drugs becouse peaple get more openminded and will therefor be less good sivelents (sorry for my english)

 

[aynama]

random thought flying...

to me the good drugs i.e. enthenogens (everything from a to z) base on one thing, the freedom to have a mind which can be changed, used to learn, a mind to change my perspective of life and do it because I can and I will.

Nothing will ever change this for me, no law or punishment. The mind is my weapon to evolve and enjoy, and this is also true for the body, as I see my body as a weapon to go through wrong choices and take what is good and better, but the body cannot get there without the mind.

without the freedom of mind, there is no life in me.
so it's a choice to exist and live, and nothing takes that away from me, but death, and I'm not giving into that. Life is mine, as I somehow got it, mine to keep!

:lesson: :think: :thud: :grin:

 

[McAdam]

Is atheism a religion?
Because otherwise a lot of people can have trouble fitting in a religion or to put words on the problem : dogma(s). Indeed, this is my problem (and i don't think to be alone in this case) with religion(s), a religion tends to have dogma(s) in order to define the "good" and the "bad" faith. What is a religion whitout "sins" and "forgiveness" and "croisads" and "all those crappy notions thats made the world like we can see it today and fools in charge of it.
I must admit that since i believe in the quote from Karl Marx that "[Religion] is the opium of people", i made out all what was possible not to get hang up by those moral-pushers. This is a very powerfull drug, which i tested in my own time and as i view it too young too handle that kind of highness (but many survived even if the lived it younger) and i, in a remarkable wiseness for a so young age, took the desition to, as i said it earlier, avoid those kind of dangerous habit that consist mostly by seeing your pusher once a week (the day every one agreed not to work to see their own pusher). That a sad thing that more than 80 % of people are, in each country of the whole world, addicted. And in our democracy countries, the "top-notch" politic ever made by mankind, when more than 80% of people are viewing drugs as "evil things" or "devil's work", you are pretty well fucked when you consider yourselven as one of the little 20% of people who aren't "affilied".
All that to say two thing : - the simple idea of having to refere to myself as a member of a church to behave like i want is making me fucking angry.
- That the idea of being perpetually stomped (or anny other kind of "holy mass jugements" and don't ask me where we can see this "holy" part of the thing) just because it don't like like their dogmas, and that i think they are perverting children by allowing then to be high so early in the consitution of their mind, their "values" are at least out-dated not to say they conduct to fascism, segregation and other mean instincts of mankind. And so, playing it quiet, makes even more angry. Those swines are playing mass despotism on me, and as usually morne no good reason at all, I am the daily victim of those faith-whore. Why should i play it quiet? Why should i become one of them to be able to act legally what i am already doing to wy own risk? Do i have to become part of the bourgeoisie to be myself? doing what my free will tells me to do ?
I don't intend to follow other's paths, especially not when i know that it ends in an other version of the things i am trying to avoid.
This Tim Leary solution to the problem of using drugs legally don't seen to me to only have the rotten taste of making two steps back to one ahead later on, but also to be doomed by the same thing that doom every changing the slavery rest, just who is in charge of the salvation changes.

One of the original paradox of such a subject is that religion is believing in a god, and entheogens are, by definitions, substances that makes users gods (ie: ethimology of the word).

McAdam

Ps : for those who finds my english horrible, my only excuse is that it isn't my mother language. And for those who fell curious about Timothy Leary's actions on the psychedelic scene as been wonderfully written by Hunter S. Thompson in "Fear in Loathing in Las Vegas" in the wisdomfull chapter about the "High Water Mark" and which starts like this : "Strange memories on this nervous night in Las Vegas. Five years later? Six? It seems like a life time, or at least a Main Era-the kind of peak that never comes again."
Yes, indeed. But for the one likes me who were born after the Wave life has been duller and duller as the wave finished to roll back and come back as the Jesus Freaks Corp. with all the other companys on the faith market.
We entered the No More Fun Zone.

 

[lucasdr]

for those who finds my english horrible, my only excuse is that it isn't my mother language.

Your vocabulary is quite up to date actually. Your grammer is horrible though

I still don't get why LSD should be illegal. You really have to be strong minded to become an 'abuser'. Even if you are one, you still need to have the ability to cope with the stuff, thus it's very hard to get addicted.

As for the whole 'make-this-a-religion' part, I agree with most people that I don't feel the need to it and I don't think it is necessary.

 

[aynama]

fuck you today.. what ever. bitch ... just kidding !!! DDD


and i agre
with
the what was his (her?) na,ename?

heh. my ayahuasca is waiting in the customs..
maybe i lose my job
maybe i lose my so called, freedom , heehe

socalled.... maybe i lose my money, what do i have any? heheheeeee

but my mind, still here. still. someday

someday my mind will not be here.. some day you fucking rotteng fuckers will realize... yes sure 10000 0 00 0 and such minutes, hours, weeks... who knows?
i need it now :grin: :grin: :grin:

fuck leary, fuck politicians (from a person who writes books) who get their crappy partial books published...

i n e v e r w i l l g i v e m y m i n d t o y o u

27 years of i see you.

I SEE YOU!

i love you int:

 

[lucasdr]

and i agre
with
the what was his (her?) na,ename?

LOL :grin:

You shouldn't care about what politicians do. Just do your thing and live the way you want. Freedom lies within yourself...

 

[aynama]

anyway. the difficulty to find a so called good religion is about the same as the difference between good and bad.

any good is there in our everyday lives, if we can find it, then all right, if not, then there is something wrong with the world?

so religion is just a word, no need to lose our selves in any such, but no need to condemn?

too bad, all religions, the main ones, christian, islam and such, are pro war, pro bad, pro male domination..

 

[lucasdr]

What about Hinduism, Buddhism and the Chinese traditional religion?

 

[svandamme]

too bad, all religions, the main ones, christian, islam and such, are pro war, pro bad, pro male domination..

there's a biiiiig difference between the religions
and the interpretation of those religions...

Christianity for example, on paper is just as pacifist as say Budhism.

if you view religions based on the track record and the way people have "implemented" yeah you're right, but that's besides the point , you don't believe in say Christ because of the Crusades or because of the Inquisition in the old days... you're supposed to believe in it because of the new testament, and the life of Christ..his pacifism, and forgiving ways, right up to his death and resurrection... in the even older days...

Same goes for Islam, those fanatics with bombs strapt on their chest blowing themselves up over some very misguided idea of the Koran ( bit similar to the Crusades or the Inquisition if you look at it ), they don't represent Islam the official religion , they just represent a messed up implementation...

so pro war, pro bad,... , that's not the religion , that's mankind, in most religions , there is a demon , christianity has "satan" ... that entity is then the culprit (at least if you believe in that, some say the books just refer to satan , but means man himself, maybe by calling it satan , blame can be put on some mistical representation of evil...)

 

[lucasdr]

so pro war, pro bad,... , that's not the religion , that's mankind, in most religions , there is a demon , christianity has "satan" ... that entity is then the culprit (at least if you believe in that, some say the books just refer to satan , but means man himself, maybe by calling it satan , blame can be put on some mistical representation of evil...)

But you can't deny the fact that christianity and the Islam are dogma's. Everything else is bad and there is no room for thinking differently. If you tell people that there's only one way to think, than you're just asking for bad interpretations and war with other societies...
Buddhism is definatly not like that. Hinduism made the mistake to turn into a dogma when the Islam got in the way...