Religious?

[Teonanacapilli]

I was just wondering who here considers themselves religious? I am curious about the interactions between religious belief and psychedelic use/psychonautics.

Personally, I have always been and am spiritual. But I have never been deeply religious as far as going to church, though I used to practice my own loose form of Christianity. The practices gradually fell away, but belief in God continued until about two years ago, around when I first started dancing with cannabis. At this time my views began transforming, as I guess they still are today. Now, I see the universe (ALL) as "God" as in the monotheistic sense. It is all things that shape and have shaped each other, producing the past, present and future state of things. Everything is a product of the universe (each other), everything together is "the" creator.

I think that religion has served it's purpose and that society needs to leave it behind to further our evolution. What do you think? Is it still necessary?

Spirituality however, is essential to any growth at all.

 

[Nanosage]

I am in no way religous, as far as mono and polytheism.. I more see both types of religions as one, I mean christians see god as EVERYTHING, and polytheists see gods of EVERYTHING. I mean corn god, war god.. etc.. That is why I am not religous, because there is so many. I used to be loosely Christian as well, praying. But then I found out it doesn't work.. Well prayer being as most people see prayer, not meditation/prayer. Christians that I know just talk to themselves and say they are praying. That doesn't work. And I have never tried meditation prayer, but I will.

I do not think that religion serves no purpose. It teaches people morals and everything. Of course it causes wars and everything, but I don't think it is even possible to banish religion, so the thing next to that, that would stop all the fighting and still teach good morals that is possible would be too put everyone in the same religion. And that, still is far fetched.. I just think it should be left alone. Some people need religion. It is the brainwashed convertists, that need to not exist. If everyone who is hard sculled and willing to fight for their religion, just stopped, then religion wouldn't be a problem, just a belief. Some people need it, where as to, some people don't. That is just the way it is.

Spirituality, sure, everyone needs it. It's like an energizer battery to some people, and keeps them going and going and going. But most people see that as religion. Which is true, religion is spirituality.

 

[IJesusChrist]

1st. Evolution has no path, to evolve doesn't mean to become better. In your eyes, or anyone elses eyes. Evolution is a natural force - it just happens and always will as long as there is a subject to act upon. We very well could 'evolve' into religious zealots.

2nd.

I am forever in search of the idea that brings peace to me. The idea of religion, the thought of ancient knowledge governing today is too odd for me. Psychodelics seem to show me something else, something beyond this world, but I struggle with the attempt to make sense of it. If the psychodelic realms are, in fact, beyond this perceived reality, and something of their own, my religion would make no sense. There seems to be no cause-and-effect, no moral boundaries, simply just a vast chaotic network of existance and non-existance. Everything is consumed, everything is regenerated, and a fractal of knowledge permeates through it all.

But I don't think psychodelics are showing me a seperate reality, I am sure I make that reality myself, and therefore my own purposes. The "I" in me, is my god, not to be confused with "I am god".

 

[Nanosage]

Sometimes, IJC, like when I take mushrooms, sleep, or even smoke for that matter, my mind goes somewhere else.. I cannot control it anymore, I just let it wander.. So I don't fully believe that I make that universe, myself. I think that they make it for me. I have those random thoughts that don't make sense at all, and I'm, sure that you do too.. But I'm not going to base a religion off of it either. Theres no saying if anyone is right or wrong. I just think that you kinda gotta go with the flow of this world while you are on it, make it a little less shitty for everyone around you, and do what you gotta do.. If you do that, the no matter what, if there is an afterlife, or even reincarnation for that matter, then you should be fine Of course there are some people that you simply cannot be nice too.. Haha.. Anyways that is the way I see it.. We really ARE NOT going to know, so believe what you want.. If you are christian.. Sure.. Whatever works.. Buddhist.. Sure.. Just anyways just make do with what you have and enjoy life!

 

[Teonanacapilli]

1st. Evolution has no path, to evolve doesn't mean to become better. In your eyes, or anyone elses eyes. Evolution is a natural force - it just happens and always will as long as there is a subject to act upon. We very well could 'evolve' into religious zealots.

Maybe there was a time when this was true, when evolution was random. But now we are steering our own evolution and the path is being controlled by our actions. Like I said we, we are molded by the universe, so it is up to us at this point to ensure we are on a productive path, by controlling what we can in our favour. People might raise the question "What is productive?" and by who's definition? But I think in the end, if you put aside the doubts you've been given, we all, or most of us share common "feelings" about what is "right and wrong". Most cultures and religions seem to have the same moral teachings at their core.

I just look at how far we've come with technology and knowledge, and I think that dropping religion is a big step in maturing. We have all this technology and knowledge, but we aren't mature enough yet to handle it.

 

[IJesusChrist]

You're not seeing the big picture, what is driving us? It is still nature, and always will be. Don't be fooled that consciousness is apart from nature itself. We are as much a part of mother nature as we ever have been, we just foolishly place ourselves above it.

If society as a whole, which is not [us] it is the nature within us, sees religion as the best option for happiness, fertility, and morality, religion will prevail. If religion impedes what society (nature) is heading for, we will see consequences.

Evolution is not like a maturing animal, there is no set way to 'evolve'. There is no 'best'. In fact, evolution is just rolling the dice, over and over and over. We may seem like we are controlling evolution, but that is a feeble construct of the mind. We will forever become more intellectual and powerful, but we are not seperate from nature, nor is nature seperate from evolution, and evolution is inevitably, unpredictable.

Nature isn't green leaves and blue skies, nature is what governs how this works, how we perceive, what influences us, and to what degree. Evolution will always be evolution; natural, undefined, and progressive towards a blank canvas.

[I seem too sure of myself, but correct me when needed]

 

[Teonanacapilli]

I think you misunderstood me somewhere, and also think that your truth is different from mine.

"What is driving us? It is still nature, and always will be." You contradict yourself here, as like you said, we are a part of nature. So yes, nature drives us, that is the universe and everything in it, that is our mold. The forward motion of the universe, or nature, is my definition of evolution.

And there is a best way to evolve now. As I argued earlier, now that we have some degree of foresight and moral knowledge there is no turning back. There was a time when we were ignorant of "right and wrong", when we could not clearly estimate the consequences of our actions, but now we can consciously influence where we go from here. We have always been, and are now at all times influencing our evolution. We just need to be good drivers on this road.

We are not all-powerful in influence on our evolution, we are a small part of the universe that influences our path. But I am saying now that we have the knowledge and technology to have a conscious effect, so with it comes the responsibility to use it properly and productively.

I think we can predict that all this doesn't matter, our population is far too vast as a species to take any sort of responsible action. And I don't think it's a stretch to foresee that we will continue on much in the same way we have in history, if a big change is not waiting on the path.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Our conscious efforts, our ability to "change" and adapt - morally or otherwise, is nature. That is evolution.

We are never going to be "Grabbing evolution by the horns" either in a positive or negative way (which would be subjective anyways). Evolution will always be pulling our strings. Just as we seem to be repeating the same illusion that we can concur nature, we can never control evolution.

That was my point, but I think you agree... Often people have the wrong assumption of what evolution truly is in its most fundamental form - it is simply change. Those that live, live. Those that die, die.

 

[Teonanacapilli]

Yeah.

Anyone else want to chime in?

 

[Nanosage]

I WILL! But I'm too high, and didn't read anything but that one message D:

 

[ararat]

I was walking in the city the other day, thinking about being god, what it means that other people are god as well, but still are individual in a way. I thought that what was needed was some kind of emancipated polytheism, in the sense that we are all gods walking the earth. spinning these thoughts further and further they deconstructed into nonsense, which was followed by quite a moment of satori.
it is this what I seek, the transendence of ideas and maps, and not more and more detailed maps, which flat surface I'd live on and maaaany other people seem to do. I'd like to eat the meal rather than study the menu, which is what I'm doing whenever I can. there are moments in which I get tied up, and it is my goal to get rid of those.
this is my quasi-religion. become what you are, be here, now, to reach the clarity and wholeness of consciousness. enlightenment, blessedness, photismos, nirvana, bodh, permanently imprint the holistic neurosomatic circuit etc.pp. there are 200 words for this, call it how you want. isn't this what everybody, or at least most psychonauts and spiritual folk is/are looking for?

I do believe that, if you go deep into the core of any religion, the message is the same, they all come from the same place (nevermind scientology). some religions seem near their true core (zen buddhism, taoism) than others, which, over time, completely alienated into weird dogmatic mumbo jumbo no longer serving real spiritual purposes (catholicism, the evangelical church).

 

[trick]

I havnt read the replies, but i like to think of myself as a mild buddhist. I like the way of life, but following ALL of the precepts in my life just simply isnt possible.

 

[magickmumu]

I have my own believes about what is reality and what is fantasy. But i do not consider myself a religious person. I don't believe in heaven hell reincarnation spirits ghost or prophecy or other paranormal stuff.

 

[Teonanacapilli]

I think that heaven, hell, enlightenment, nirvana (like you were saying, BananaPancake) are all experienced here, now, on earth. Maybe they were only meant to be metaphors for experience?

I do believe that, if you go deep into the core of any religion, the message is the same, they all come from the same place (nevermind scientology). some religions seem near their true core (zen buddhism, taoism) than others, which, over time, completely alienated into weird dogmatic mumbo jumbo no longer serving real spiritual purposes (catholicism, the evangelical church).

I think I agree with that.

 

[Nanosage]

I think that everyone is their own god, honestly.. Because you ARE in control of yourself and your own actions.. But I mean if there is a 'God' than it controls you into believing that you are in control of yourself.. I don't know.. The answer to questions like this is I DON'T KNOW. Because realistically, you are never really going to get it all figured out..

 

[ophiuchus]

Christians that I know just talk to themselves and say they are praying. That doesn't work. And I have never tried meditation prayer, but I will.

"meditation prayer" you have if you have ever wanted anything with pure intent of taking all the steps to have it. ever had a desire that you could not get out of your head? :idea:

1st. Evolution has no path, to evolve doesn't mean to become better. In your eyes, or anyone elses eyes. Evolution is a natural force - it just happens and always will as long as there is a subject to act upon. We very well could 'evolve' into religious zealots.

that doesn't make sense. how is there no path to evolution when you have seen non-organic molecules become organic, and single cells function in large groups? and you yourself are made of trillions of them...

you're right, to evolve doesn't mean become "better", better is a subjective word. complex, however, seems to be a suitable term to use here.
evolution, as it's been observed, is increase in complexity, or a decrease in complexity, and i would suggest to you, that this is to increase moments of pleasure to the species, as others have pointed out too (dan winter, off the top of my head). it could be function, it could be fashion. either way, evolution has a purpose, and that is to serve it's species.

be it functionality, or physical appearance, evolution definitely has a path, that path may not be definite, however that does not mean that we change for no reason at all, that, does not make sense.

evolution is simply the effect of time. it is no special force outside the limits of space/time/matter, it moves at their exact pace. asians binding their feet and mayans binding their heads, or ethiopians(?) stretching their necks is a good example, not of evolution, but to the pliable nature of life to change to the will of external forces. and in seeing this, i can definitely see how over a longer stretch of time, what is used, stays, and becomes better, and what is not used, degrades, and becomes lost in the folds of time.

the framework of life is a simple mold

 

[ophiuchus]

Evolution is not like a maturing animal, there is no set way to 'evolve'. There is no 'best'. In fact, evolution is just rolling the dice, over and over and over. We may seem like we are controlling evolution, but that is a feeble construct of the mind. We will forever become more intellectual and powerful, but we are not seperate from nature, nor is nature seperate from evolution, and evolution is inevitably, unpredictable.

Nature isn't green leaves and blue skies, nature is what governs how this works, how we perceive, what influences us, and to what degree. Evolution will always be evolution; natural, undefined, and progressive towards a blank canvas.

[I seem too sure of myself, but correct me when needed]

just because there is no "best"(in the objective sense) doesn't mean there's no "better" (in the subjective sense)

"Evolution is not like a maturing animal"
uhhh... time is nature. or rather, time is one way to percieve nature act. as is matter/space. by this logic, a maturing animal is expressing time, (nature). a maturing animal is the definition of evolution! you're starting to scare me.

you should never "seem" sure of anything. you should "be sure". you imply that what you wrote, you wrote with doubt. why would you try to state your doubts empirically?

 

[ophiuchus]

religious? not in the sense we are referring.

... I see the universe (ALL) as "God" ... It is all things that shape and have shaped each other, producing the past, present and future state of things. Everything is a product of the universe (each other), everything together is "the" creator.

i want to go a little farther though and say that there definitely is such a thing as free will; only that everything you do is still predictable in a general sense. that is to say, i may choose to watch a movie or not, but all of the events leading up to that have slanted the 50-50ness into a choice that generally lies on one side or another. i say general, because in a universe with infinite possibilities, sometimes it is necessary to make a choice, simply to test whether or not we have free will. but astrology has never proven me wrong since i have found a reliable source for it, and learned to interpret it properly. in fact, i have missed days recently where i didn't read my horoscope until later that night or the next day, and it was still scarily on point. external factors that were entirely out of my control brought to my attention through the stars. and im still only crawling. i cannot wait till i stand and walk around

we are steering our own evolution and the path is being controlled by our actions. Like I said we, we are molded by the universe, so it is up to us at this point to ensure we are on a productive path, by controlling what we can in our favour.

technology HAS given us a much more instant version of the trends that we've seen in the past..

People might raise the question "What is productive?" and by who's definition? But I think in the end, if you put aside the doubts you've been given, we all, or most of us share common "feelings" about what is "right and wrong". Most cultures and religions seem to have the same moral teachings at their core.

And there is a best way to evolve now.

i would not say right or wrong, best or worst. this is to say that there is an end result. can you think of a scenario in which NOTHING could be improved and still be utopia for everyone and all? i dont believe in these objectivities. i would say better, but never best. as so, morals are still present, definitely, and the rest of your arguement remains in tact. we are aware, so we are responsible in this sense.

I just look at how far we've come with technology and knowledge, and I think that dropping religion is a big step in maturing. We have all this technology and knowledge, but we aren't mature enough yet to handle it.

i think that maybe we(society as a whole) will be able to see through the lines some day, (who knows when...) and be able to blur the religions boundaries, merge the theories together into a unified sense of spirituality. the only problem with that now is that we still have these societies that are only in their budding stages of developement, (intelligence) and so this will hold all of society back until we all cross the 'starting' line. yes, we (as a whole) haven't even begun to act as humans yet, in the sense that we would like to think of ourselves. and i think that the only direct way to do this, is to speak of spirituality, it is very taboo now still. teach your children, and teach them to teach! and teach them never to accept a biased answer. this is the way to curiousity, and knowledge

 

[IJesusChrist]

just because there is no "best"(in the objective sense) doesn't mean there's no "better" (in the subjective sense)

"Evolution is not like a maturing animal"
uhhh... time is nature. or rather, time is one way to percieve nature act. as is matter/space. by this logic, a maturing animal is expressing time, (nature). a maturing animal is the definition of evolution! you're starting to scare me.

you should never "seem" sure of anything. you should "be sure". you imply that what you wrote, you wrote with doubt. why would you try to state your doubts empirically?

I never say I am sure, because there are no definite answers. There is only opinions based on perception and there are many choices in how to view reality.

I am talking from a biologists perspective. When you view evolution, you see that it is only survival of the fittest. Life simply exists because it can. There is a very, VERY deep and fundamental understanding of evolution I would argue NOBODY knows about yet, but we can see it; much like the confusion of dark energy.

The universe increases in entropy, it was to become as disordered as possible. Based on that assumption alone, biology should never have become something worth studying - it would have never manifested. But there are very deep asymptotes within the fabric of reality (physics & chemistry) that are able to account for such a complex environment on earth.

However, there is no end result, biology is simply cause and effect, with no eventual 'perfect' as far as what we're talking about. There is no 'better' as far as biology is talking about - it is random tossing of the dice 10^100 times.

We can watch bacteria evolve (really, its gotten beyond the point of mutation and now people can actually start to analyze evolution) and we see that it is just simply the rolling of the dice. The higher the dice sum, the better chance that player rolls again. The "game" (for analogy) gets more and more complex as we move from methan, to something like a fatty acid, to something like serotonin, to insulin, to a virus... and eventually to us or animals. Immensely complex, so much so we can no longer study the dice to see their effect on the game. The game and the dice seem completely seperated, but we know they are in-fact, one in the same.

The reason I say there is no path, is because the game just goes. There is only 1 goal in the game, and that is to get the higher score (the better chance to reproduce), there are no rules, there are no referees, just something like 10^39 atoms, dice, in the universe (or is it 10^80?).

Beyond that, I won't even argue that the path is to reproduce. In my opinion, life is just one funnel in which the dices had fallen, some beautiful, mystical place where the game can be played - but there was no reason it started, there was no player that tossed the dice into the game of life, they just happened to roll there, and there, in that niche of reality, of physics, we exist.

... There is my view of reality.

 

[ararat]

even though evolution really seems as a big trial and error thing, working solely through more or less random mutations, I do dislike that view. it makes it sound like a big machine that randomly mixes atoms and brings out complex structures.
I liked what Alan Watts pointed out in one of his videos, in the west, we had the view of the universe that there is a god, and that god created the universe. over time we let go of the notion of a god but kept the universe, something that has been made, a machine, an artifact almost.
in (probably ancient) china the universe is seen as something that grows, as nature, that which happens of itself, but is living - in contrast to the western view. in india it's viewed as a drama of the great self if I'm not mistaken.
both views resonate way better with me than the others. I like to think of reality as a rorschach-test see it as you wish