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Psychedelic: Defined

MichaelVipperman

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maxfreakout

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this is excellent!!! Exactly along my own lines of thinking

psychedelic tripping = transcendent mode of mental-construct processing
 

MichaelVipperman

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Glad to hear you think so! Subscribe so you can see more of my framework emerge... new article every Sunday at noon. :)
 

MichaelVipperman

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Hmm... does it make more sense to post articles here or in Psychonautic Research?
 

maxfreakout

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Are you familiar with Michael Hoffman's cybernetic theory of ego death? If not you should definitely have a look at www.egodeath.com, that is the most advanced theory of psychedelia by far, Hoffman is years ahead of everyone else (ie Grof, Leary, Mckenna etc)
 

MichaelVipperman

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Is that the same guy as Michael A Hoffman II, the revisionist?

I glanced at the site you linked and my first impression is not terribly favourable, I must say. Having not looked extensively at what he's on about, he reminds me of John C Lilly, and not in a good way.

What that he's written do you think is the best? Like a single essay or article. I clicked around the website a bit and didn't stumble across much that was worthwhile; it's hard to navigate and much of it as half-formed, containing more jargon than insight. In one of the links he even suggests that drugs are preferable to meditation! As beneficial as I think drugs can be, I'm very wary of that sort of approach.

That said, I'm willing to give him a chance if you'll recommend something that's likely to convince me of the cogency of his theory. Keep in mind that I have an academic background and am therefore on the one hand used to dense, complicated material, and on the other hand very quick to spot bullshit.
 

maxfreakout

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MichaelVipperman a dit:
Is that the same guy as Michael A Hoffman II, the revisionist?

No different guy, this Hoffman has briefly commented on the writing of the other ^ revisionist historian Michael A Hoffman II

MichaelVipperman a dit:
What that he's written do you think is the best? Like a single essay or article.

First read this article:
The Bubble of Simulation: Subjective Experience as a Virtual Environment - http://egodeath.com/BubbleOfSimulation.htm

that article has roughly the same project as the essay you posted, - to explain exactly what happens (at the cognitive level) in the psychedelic trip, Hoffman's concept of 'loosened association binding' is the most advanced characterisation of the cognitive mechanism that is responsible for the psychedelic trip effect.

Then read this essay:
The Entheogen Theory of Religion and Ego Death - http://egodeath.com/EntheogenTheoryOfReligion.htm

that essay fully explains the broad, overall 'theory of ego death'


MichaelVipperman a dit:
Like a single essay or article. I clicked around the website a bit and didn't stumble across much that was worthwhile; it's hard to navigate and much of it as half-formed

those 2 pages are fully formed, well structured essays which capture the full impact of ego death theory

MichaelVipperman a dit:
In one of the links he even suggests that drugs are preferable to meditation! As beneficial as I think drugs can be, I'm very wary of that sort of approach.

Hoffman would never say that 'drugs are preferable to meditation' because that statement is entirely meaningless on its own, the meaning of the word 'preferable' needs to be made absolutely explicit, - preferable how, and for what specific pupose? Hoffman's position on this matter put most simply is that taking drugs (specifically psychedelic drugs) allows you to gain ergonomic (repeatable, reliable, 'on-tap') access to the intense psychedelic altered state of consciousness, whereas meditating does not have this effect

MichaelVipperman a dit:
That said, I'm willing to give him a chance if you'll recommend something that's likely to convince me of the cogency of his theory. Keep in mind that I have an academic background and am therefore on the one hand used to dense, complicated material, and on the other hand very quick to spot bullshit.

ego death theory is a radical, profound revolution in thought which spans across a diverse range of academic fields (psychology, religious studies, cybernetics, philosophy etc etc). Hoffman has worked out the hidden esoteric meaning of all religion and mythology, and then formulated it explicitly into a coherent systematic theoretical framework. Furthermore much of his work is directly concerned with exactly the same project that you are engaged in in that essay you posted, so it would benefit your work enormously to get a grasp of this theory, it is a theory of psychedelic tripping.

Hoffman's core, fundamental intellectual contribution, is to draw an explicit connection between these 4 things - psychedelic tripping, determinism, cybernetics, and religious symbolism/mythic metaphor.
 

MichaelVipperman

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You're right, he didn't say they're preferable, he said they're "more legitimate," which is even more suspect. Here's the revelant quote:
Michael Hoffman a dit:
The orthodox view is that:

o Mystic insight and enlightenment are nonrational.
o There is a moderate amount of free will.
o Entheogens are much less legitimate than meditation.
o The figures in the Bible are literal individuals.

The gnostic or fully mystic view is that:

o Mystic insight and enlightenment are rational.
o There is no free will; the idea is nonsensical so there can't be a moderate amount.
o Entheogens are much more legitimate than meditation.
o The figures in the Bible are purely, essentially mythic allegories for the intense mystic altered state.
Your thoughts on that?

What you're saying, that the psychedelics/entheogens are more reliable for producing profound states of consciousness, I agree with. Meditation, on the other hand, is more reliable for producing improved consciousness in general. Ideally, both would be employed... but meditation is contraindicated for less people, and should be seen as more central to the Path. Psychedelics/entheogens I believe should be seen more as a powerful tool, an adjunct to the work you really should be doing sober. They're a useful tool for exactly the reason you mention: their reliability in "getting you there." But there's a hell of a lot more to the Path than simply "getting there." Part of my concern is that many psychedelic users don't understand that, and the language Hoffman uses therefore encourages people to fall into error.

Remember, this is powerful stuff we're talking about here. It must not be used unwisely. Meditation will grant you that wisdom, so that you know when is or isn't a wise time to use it.

Anyway, I'll read the Bubble of Simulation article now. One of my biggest academic loves is level of abstraction... I've written papers about analytic frames and felt really good inside after. Should be fun. :)
 

maxfreakout

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Hoffman’s overall project is to explicitly systematise the psychedelic insights, to build a general framework (or paradigm, model etc) which explains why psychedelic drugs have the effect they have and what the metaphysical significance is of that effect. You can view all trip reports through the lense of Hoffman’s cybernetics/determinism/dissociation/metaphor framework, so for example you can translate the core psychedelic insights from your article into the language of that framework:

MichaelVipperman a dit:
“it tweaks our reality engine, making it clear that reality is pliable”

the psychedelic effect loosens the binding intensity of cognitive associations, this reveals the representational nature of mental (including perceptual) contents, the most obvious way this happens, is via the effect that tripping has on visual perception

this is all explained in the ‘bubble of simulation’ article

MichaelVipperman a dit:
“putting us in contact with the machinery by which we construct reality”

psychedelic tripping reveals the *metaperceptive* point of view (transcendental mental dynamics) in which perception steps back/up a level so that it can see the cognitive machinery which underlies ordinary perceptual processes. In the ordinary state of consciousness, this machinery is invisible (it is in the background, merely implicit, taken for granted)

MichaelVipperman a dit:
“I’m wont to argue that, given suitable reflection, any change in perspective, once compared to any other perspective, can provide meaningful insight if we examine the ways in which the two are different: a “psychic triangulation” of sorts, to fitting with the cartographic metaphor for psychedelic use. In other words, seeing how you experience yourself and the world on any substance and comparing that to when you’re sober can deepen your understanding.”

This is a centrally important point, - the psychedelic state and the ordinary state shine torches of perspective onto each other, the enlightened person’s mental world-model (i.e. their personal system of metaphysical assumptions, the ‘nomos’) is the model which fully incorporates the data from both states of consciousness.

so how exactly do you experience yourself in the psychedelic state? And what exactly is the ‘deepening of understanding’ that you get from tripping on drugs and then thinking about the trip afterwards? – A good analogy for tripping is to say that it is like waking up from a dream (Jungianism and Buddhism both employ this analogy in different ways). When you are dreaming, you mistakenly take it for granted that the situation you are in is real, then when you wake up, looking back at the dream you realise that the situation in fact wasn’t real, because you were asleep dreaming, it was merely a dream and therefore not real. So when you are dreaming, you make the naïve mistake of taking the dream to be actual reality, and when you wake up, you realise your mistake and adjust your beliefs accordingly. This comparison between dreaming and waking up can be mapped directly onto the comparison between the ordinary state of consciousness and the intense psychedelic altered state. In the ordinary state of consciousness, the unenlightened mind takes surface appearances to be literally real (in the sense of ‘external to oneself’), then the psychedelic state of consciousness reveals that perceptual content (the mosaic patchwork of surface appearances that are presented to consciousness) are merely mental projections, and therefore unreal (not separate from the subject himself), it does this by making the physical world look blatantly unreal, cartoonlike, wavy, flowing etc.
 

MichaelVipperman

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Frankly, I think Hoffman is mistaking psychosis for enlightenment. When I take psychedelics, and especially when I combine them with gnostic practices, I become more fully in my body, and present in the world... not less. Yes, the machinery of perception is revealed, but that doesn't make the world unreal, it just means our perceptions of it are imperfect.

A regular Tai Chi or Yoga practice will do wonders for anyone who's coming at things in this way. There's a lot more to consciousness than just the brain...
 

maxfreakout

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MichaelVipperman a dit:
You're right, he didn't say they're preferable, he said they're "more legitimate," which is even more suspect. Here's the revelant quote:
Michael Hoffman a dit:
The orthodox view is that:

o Mystic insight and enlightenment are nonrational.
o There is a moderate amount of free will.
o Entheogens are much less legitimate than meditation.
o The figures in the Bible are literal individuals.

The gnostic or fully mystic view is that:

o Mystic insight and enlightenment are rational.
o There is no free will; the idea is nonsensical so there can't be a moderate amount.
o Entheogens are much more legitimate than meditation.
o The figures in the Bible are purely, essentially mythic allegories for the intense mystic altered state.
Your thoughts on that?

Read that quote very carefully, he isnt saying there that entheogens are more OR less legitimate than meditation, rather he is outlining two different viewpoints, the 'orthodox' viewpoint and the 'gnostic/mystic' viewpoint, on a number of distinct subjects including the legitimacy of entheogens compared to meditation

MichaelVipperman a dit:
What you're saying, that the psychedelics/entheogens are more reliable for producing profound states of consciousness, I agree with.


The point to clearly emphasize is that meditation does not do the same thing that entheogens do, i.e. allow repeatable, controllable, easy access to the intense mystical state, many people find it very difficult to face up to that


MichaelVipperman a dit:
meditation is contraindicated for less people, and should be seen as more central to the Path.

it depends what you mean by ‘the Path’, if you want your ‘path’ to include psychedelic altered state experiences, then the only way to ensure this is by taking drugs.


MichaelVipperman a dit:
Psychedelics/entheogens I believe should be seen more as a powerful tool, an adjunct to the work you really should be doing sober.

That doesn’t make any sense, the ‘work’ that you do in psychedelic altered state sessions (i.e. experiencing the altered state and paying attention to it) cannot be done sober



MichaelVipperman a dit:
They're a useful tool for exactly the reason you mention: their reliability in "getting you there." But there's a hell of a lot more to the Path than simply "getting there." Part of my concern is that many psychedelic users don't understand that, and the language Hoffman uses therefore encourages people to fall into error.

There are 2 essential components to the psychedelic ‘path’, one is becoming acquainted with the psychedelic state of consciousness, the other is to develop an understanding of the altered states when you are back in ordinary consciousness. Since Hoffman is absolutely explicit on this point, he will not encourage anyone to ‘fall into error’.
 

maxfreakout

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MichaelVipperman a dit:
Frankly, I think Hoffman is mistaking psychosis for enlightenment.

He clearly explains the difference between psychosis (ie mental illness, schizophrenia), psychedelic tripping, and enlightenment, he does not say they are the same thing so he cannot be 'mistaking' them for each other

MichaelVipperman a dit:
When I take psychedelics, and especially when I combine them with gnostic practices, I become more fully in my body, and present in the world... not less. Yes, the machinery of perception is revealed, but that doesn't make the world unreal, it just means our perceptions of it are imperfect.

I dont think Hoffman would disagree with any of this ^ so this is not a valid comment about the theory (ie he does not claim that "psychedelics make you less in your body and present in the world" as you seem to suggest), the claim isnt that the world is unreal, rather the claim is that perception is representational (ie indirect). Psychedelic tripping makes the representational nature of perception explicit, whereas it is only implicit in the ordinary state of consciousness
 

MichaelVipperman

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Well, fair enough. That's just the impression I got from what I read. He seems very dualistic and I'm not entirely comfortable with that. Where does he outline the difference between psychosis, tripping and enlightenment? I'd be interested to read that.
 

maxfreakout

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MichaelVipperman a dit:
He seems very dualistic and I'm not entirely comfortable with that.

what do you mean 'dualistic'?

MichaelVipperman a dit:
Where does he outline the difference between psychosis, tripping and enlightenment? I'd be interested to read that.

i dont know an exact place, do a search for the relevant words. The basic idea is, schizophrenic psychosis and tripping both share the common feature of loosening (or splitting) of cognitive associations, they differ because in schizophrenia the periods of dissociation cannot be controlled, whereas with drugs the entry into that state can be controlled. Enlightenment is a different thing altogether, it is the metaphysical worldmodel (assumption-set/belief-network) which results from psychedelic mental transformation
 
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